Way to make people aware about the demoscene...
category: general [glöplog]
kb: But that's the point, and it's a point that a lot of people seem to be missing.
From what I'm reading in this thread (almost) noone is debating that outside influence from whatever source is a bad thing: demos have been fusing in popular and underground culture alike since the 90s, and that's great, I love to see all the fusion of oldskool and motion graphics and creative coding and AAA tech and the different music and artstyles and all that.
But there's less DEMOS.
Sure, Shadertoy can score 5 good looking shaders a week but this is where the intro-vs-shader point comes in: I joined the scene because I liked demos. I liked that there was cohesion between audio and video, there was structure, tension curve, direction, that the end results were - like it or not - works of art. That's what gets me interested, but there's less interest of that now because you can just make a single shader and not bother about finding a musician or do cinematography, or do a WebGL effect via Github that has sliders so that people can mess around with it.
This isn't a scene-only thing either, everything became more compressed. Episodes instead of films, songs instead of albums, vines instead of videos, tweets instead of blog posts; the attention span and time budget people have is way too small of a window now. It's no surprise a single screen effect that you can spend 3 seconds on to fully understand is more popular than something that takes 5 minutes to watch.
And there's nothing to do about it, obviously - we both know how much effort a "big" demo/intro takes, and how it becomes more and more exhausting, so no wonder more and more people just wanna mess around with something that doesn't take longer than a lazy Saturday afternoon. But as you said, we in the scene probably all enjoy the large scale effort more than the doodle, and there's less of that.
I'm not worried about things coming into the scene. I'm slightly concerned about the things not coming in. Or worse, leaving.
From what I'm reading in this thread (almost) noone is debating that outside influence from whatever source is a bad thing: demos have been fusing in popular and underground culture alike since the 90s, and that's great, I love to see all the fusion of oldskool and motion graphics and creative coding and AAA tech and the different music and artstyles and all that.
But there's less DEMOS.
Sure, Shadertoy can score 5 good looking shaders a week but this is where the intro-vs-shader point comes in: I joined the scene because I liked demos. I liked that there was cohesion between audio and video, there was structure, tension curve, direction, that the end results were - like it or not - works of art. That's what gets me interested, but there's less interest of that now because you can just make a single shader and not bother about finding a musician or do cinematography, or do a WebGL effect via Github that has sliders so that people can mess around with it.
This isn't a scene-only thing either, everything became more compressed. Episodes instead of films, songs instead of albums, vines instead of videos, tweets instead of blog posts; the attention span and time budget people have is way too small of a window now. It's no surprise a single screen effect that you can spend 3 seconds on to fully understand is more popular than something that takes 5 minutes to watch.
And there's nothing to do about it, obviously - we both know how much effort a "big" demo/intro takes, and how it becomes more and more exhausting, so no wonder more and more people just wanna mess around with something that doesn't take longer than a lazy Saturday afternoon. But as you said, we in the scene probably all enjoy the large scale effort more than the doodle, and there's less of that.
I'm not worried about things coming into the scene. I'm slightly concerned about the things not coming in. Or worse, leaving.
keops: hum... well, maybe having a first person shooter where the player has to jump over scrolls-text, fire on plasma cubes, find all the greetings flags... and have to code few things here and there to unlock new weapons... might actually do it! ;)
Like this?
or that Triagon game that The Match did at outline...
I agree that the resistance to change that smash and kb mentioned is a bad thing. We should be embracing stuff like WebGL because people do amazing stuff with that, and it has its own unique set of challenges that many oldschool sceners don't appreciate but newcomers do.
I don't buy the notion that by "letting these people in" the quality or scope of prods will go down in the long run, the competitive aspect of the scene should keep the quality bar high and encourage people to outdo each-other just as it always has. Sure you'll see a lot of crap too but the cream will float to the top.
There are a lot of kids at university with tons of time to make awesome shit, it's not like everyone in the world is 35 and has no time.
I don't buy the notion that by "letting these people in" the quality or scope of prods will go down in the long run, the competitive aspect of the scene should keep the quality bar high and encourage people to outdo each-other just as it always has. Sure you'll see a lot of crap too but the cream will float to the top.
There are a lot of kids at university with tons of time to make awesome shit, it's not like everyone in the world is 35 and has no time.
Gargaj: nice "demoscene FPS" indeed :)
Gargaj, that's another interactive example which is even artier: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxvrRXoUjJA
As a relative newcomer, I agree that the focus of demoscene on code feels unhealthy. I do not know how much of this is true, but newspaper articles every once in a while give examples of French translating into French even the silliest things (e.g. president's Bush surname, apparently). Even if not true, it is a bit funny, because it seems overly defensive. A common (not total, just common) demoscene reaction to everything which is not pure realtime code is just the same, defensive. Good concept or good graphics or good design get dismissed just because they are not "realtime" enough. God, "State of the Art" still manages to get an annoyed coder's comment, even after all these years!
I mean, I do get it. I am a coder, myself. So I get it, and I get the idea that code is something that gives demos their unique identity. But the negative reaction to fusions with other things apart from the code is not productive. Actually, it is unhealthy. I think that if demoscene was really as strong as it seems to assume it is, it should take these new influences as a challenge, not as an insult. You find it hard to compete for the attention of YouTube audience? did you ever consider that your demo concepts may simply be not good enough? You find it difficult to attract attention of a person interested in visual arts? well, maybe there are still few tricks left to learn from the visual arts?
I guess, my message really is, with so much competitiveness within the demoscene, it is very strange how badly it seems to take the competition with the outside words. Alarm bells should be ringing.
As a relative newcomer, I agree that the focus of demoscene on code feels unhealthy. I do not know how much of this is true, but newspaper articles every once in a while give examples of French translating into French even the silliest things (e.g. president's Bush surname, apparently). Even if not true, it is a bit funny, because it seems overly defensive. A common (not total, just common) demoscene reaction to everything which is not pure realtime code is just the same, defensive. Good concept or good graphics or good design get dismissed just because they are not "realtime" enough. God, "State of the Art" still manages to get an annoyed coder's comment, even after all these years!
I mean, I do get it. I am a coder, myself. So I get it, and I get the idea that code is something that gives demos their unique identity. But the negative reaction to fusions with other things apart from the code is not productive. Actually, it is unhealthy. I think that if demoscene was really as strong as it seems to assume it is, it should take these new influences as a challenge, not as an insult. You find it hard to compete for the attention of YouTube audience? did you ever consider that your demo concepts may simply be not good enough? You find it difficult to attract attention of a person interested in visual arts? well, maybe there are still few tricks left to learn from the visual arts?
I guess, my message really is, with so much competitiveness within the demoscene, it is very strange how badly it seems to take the competition with the outside words. Alarm bells should be ringing.
Scream DEMOSCENE on their faces.
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Simply spoken you can now work creatively with a computer as the medium without having to code. Plus a scene that always thought this is somehow worth less.
I know that we're talking demos and all, but when book authors used crude word processors to write their novels in the last few decades, would you consider that code, or did you just make a slight little boo-boo?
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I agree that the focus of demoscene on code feels unhealthy.
Let me say it clearly. The focus of our art is code and always will be code.
If anything is unhealthy in our scene, is not the focus on code but the resistance to explore things like interactivity, new platforms, etc.
I fully agree with Rudy (would not be the first time).
I noticed F-Cycles still has not contacted me.
I wanted to say in 1994 I realized one could connect the Vectrex lightpen to the Amiga 500 joystick port and easily code an interactive program to move geometric white forms on the Amiga screen from a single bit returned by Joystick byte status.
Sometimes I misread people confusing demos (technique) with demoscene (culture). Hence it is harder for these people to understand why same result with different technique is not demoscene and temptations to switch boat abound.
As a wise man on a moutain once said (or was it Sim ?), to trace a line you need two points and thus if you do not cherish your roots you only have one of the two, which in turn explains the inherent anxiety of not knowing where you are heading and all the questioning.
Personally I have made peace with Wikipedia's lies, the GL Amos way, Google's failed attempts to steer creative coding away from scene, all the people who supposedly invented Internet in general.
I don't thin Outreach is worthy as it is often a personal view presented as a false truth preached to mostly non-carers, usually damaging and for short-term profits. Inreach is ok I presume but it is a passive dream not certain to ever happen. To me we should be more claiming other people's ill-acquired properties that have affected us (like the Amerindians when the cowboys stole their land for freedom).
Did I say I agreed with Rudy already ?
I noticed F-Cycles still has not contacted me.
I wanted to say in 1994 I realized one could connect the Vectrex lightpen to the Amiga 500 joystick port and easily code an interactive program to move geometric white forms on the Amiga screen from a single bit returned by Joystick byte status.
Sometimes I misread people confusing demos (technique) with demoscene (culture). Hence it is harder for these people to understand why same result with different technique is not demoscene and temptations to switch boat abound.
As a wise man on a moutain once said (or was it Sim ?), to trace a line you need two points and thus if you do not cherish your roots you only have one of the two, which in turn explains the inherent anxiety of not knowing where you are heading and all the questioning.
Personally I have made peace with Wikipedia's lies, the GL Amos way, Google's failed attempts to steer creative coding away from scene, all the people who supposedly invented Internet in general.
I don't thin Outreach is worthy as it is often a personal view presented as a false truth preached to mostly non-carers, usually damaging and for short-term profits. Inreach is ok I presume but it is a passive dream not certain to ever happen. To me we should be more claiming other people's ill-acquired properties that have affected us (like the Amerindians when the cowboys stole their land for freedom).
Did I say I agreed with Rudy already ?
Shifter: OR you could read again and this time not skip over the "as the medium" part. Or did I miss that time in the 80s when bestselling authors shipped PCs instead of books for people to read?
Exactly what Gargaj said.
It doesnt.
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Sorry for not reading through all the crap, but why does it matter if "people" are aware about the demoscene or not?
It doesnt.
novel: I'm thinking the scene mag function has been taken over by social media and sites like http://www.displayhack.org/ ?
Don't get me wrong, I think I might enjoy downloading a PDF mag if it was professional looking and with good content, but I fear the workload in doing something like that is way too much compared to "just" putting something on a digital platform. Pouet handles the charts.. displayhack and other sites handle articles and party reports.. etc.
Don't get me wrong, I think I might enjoy downloading a PDF mag if it was professional looking and with good content, but I fear the workload in doing something like that is way too much compared to "just" putting something on a digital platform. Pouet handles the charts.. displayhack and other sites handle articles and party reports.. etc.
We need a badly photocopied zine!!
Or a radio sh... ooooh wait... ;)
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I'm not worried about things coming into the scene. I'm slightly concerned about the things not coming in. Or worse, leaving.
And this is why we organize, or try to, vibrant parties that change with the times to let stuff in.
I have been fantasizing for a while about having a demotool class at the local hackerspace, but I'm not qualified to teach it alone because 1) I just learned the tool I use and need to learn more and 2) I don't know the code end, and would want to train coders as well as graphicians. And the tool isn't released yet.
But hmm, Skype exists.
Tools are one way to get demos happening. Shadertoy is baby steps toward demos.
I have a fantasy about filling a bus with 22-26 year old students from my local department (they are in design, aesthetics, code etc) and taking them to Revision, but I am unsure of how to go about framing this for them. What IS the demoscene, and why should a 22 year old care? I can to a certain degree sell it as people doing "digital art" and I dont think thats very far from the mark. I could also sell it as DIY digital programming as opposed to our modern consumer culture. A kind of makers-but-with-digital stuff.
But what gets me, is would such kids be welcomed and what would be their reason for going? I am looking for advice here, because at this advanced stage of my life and career I might have the tools, funding and well, stature to make something like this happen.
But are we welcoming enough?
But what gets me, is would such kids be welcomed and what would be their reason for going? I am looking for advice here, because at this advanced stage of my life and career I might have the tools, funding and well, stature to make something like this happen.
But are we welcoming enough?
You could sell it as a "bunch of people who are doing stuff you might be interested in, plus copious amounts of cheap alcohol". That usually goes over well to students of that age. I think they would be welcomed, though some briefing would obviously be necessary...
nic0: Yes. Do it!
That's basically what IGAD in the Netherlands did and that resulted in about 30/40 kids coming to revision every year and Poo-brain, which is p good i'd say!
At this year's Evoke there had been Judith Ackermann with her group of bachelor-grade seminar students giving a presentation ("The demoscene as subject to academic teaching and research") and experiencing the atmosphere and watching some compos. That's similar to what nic0 is suggesting.
Has anyone had any feedback on how her students have perceived all this, if they found it interesting, talked to people, or were disappointed? (I remember the ANSI/ASCII compo was one of the first they watched, and it dragged on and on... and I think they left before the main compos?)
Has anyone had any feedback on how her students have perceived all this, if they found it interesting, talked to people, or were disappointed? (I remember the ANSI/ASCII compo was one of the first they watched, and it dragged on and on... and I think they left before the main compos?)
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I have a fantasy about filling a bus with 22-26 year old students from my local department (they are in design, aesthetics, code etc) and taking them to Revision, but I am unsure of how to go about framing this for them. What IS the demoscene, and why should a 22 year old care? I can to a certain degree sell it as people doing "digital art" and I dont think thats very far from the mark. I could also sell it as DIY digital programming as opposed to our modern consumer culture. A kind of makers-but-with-digital stuff.
But what gets me, is would such kids be welcomed and what would be their reason for going? I am looking for advice here, because at this advanced stage of my life and career I might have the tools, funding and well, stature to make something like this happen.
But are we welcoming enough?
Apart from the usual (and mostly online happening) subtle elitism I don't think any party (which is more than an internal meeting) will not be welcomming towards new people, and Revision does already host a great number of "external" visitors every year.
So the question should not be if the Revision visitors are welcoming enough (they are) but if your students are open minded enough to have fun and interest in such an event :)
If the answer is 'yes', please ship them by the numbers!
