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I'm grown on trackers, Amiga's (Octa)MED mostly. On PC I was using Psycle and when it comes to DAWs I tried few but just can't get used to them. It's like I've learnt ZX Spectrum's Basic and then wasn't able to learn C or Java. It's frustrating. Should I keep trying or just get Renoise? What would you say are the limitations of Renoise VS the other DAWs?

Ah, the _other_ (ex-)psycle user. ;)

You might wanna try Tracktion. It's probably the most straight forward "bigger" DAW out there.

I'd say Renoise as you are more familiar with tracker style. It runs standard VST plugins.
Then there is Ableton Live, which functions like "normal" DAW (it also has from-ass-dept. clip system, but you dont have to use it)

I'm not a musician, but I like to dabble with tunes from time to time. My first music "composing" experience was with FastTracker II, and I had similar struggle with modern DAWs.

I think pretty much the only solution is to try some DAWs and see which one clicks for you. For me it was Cockos Reaper, where immediately most things seemed like they were in the right place.
For Renoise, I didn't use it much, but if it fits you I'd doubt it would limit you in your music. I've heard some great music made with that software. For example, AFAIK musician Lain Trzaska uses it for most of his music.

The bottom line is: the proof of the pudding is in the eating :)

(PS: As I'm actually a programmer, I'd like to make a language recommendation too: C#. It is the language where I feel I'm having the most actual fun programming. In case you ever have an itch to code again :) )

i use ardour, just couz it's free and i don't feel comfortable paying big bucks for a DAW software i would only use twice a month or so, being a hobbyist musician that i am.

But if you're more comfortable with trackers i definitely recommend renoise, it's quite good, i have a license for it, i don't use it more often because i usually fiddle around with very large samples, not easy to preview mixes using those in tracking software.

I did try Ableton quite hard and didn't like it. I don't have a problem with things being complex (OctaMED isn't particularly straight forward, and even as simple DAW as Ignite didn't get me), it's a workflow that I find unintuitive.
Maybe the question should be: should I keep learning how to record in realtime? Because in trackers I basically type the music in with computer keyboard, perfectly quantized by design, in side by side channels. In DAW I play MIDI controllers and record in realtime, and then get out of creativity mode because I need a constant preview of what I already have, and to have a decent preview I spend a lot of time fiddling with quantization and generally aligning/glueing/editing all those draggable, stretchable, zoomable stripes together.
Resigning from MIDI controllers and VSTs is out of the question. But I practically don't use sample clips, so clip-oriented DAWs are not for me (unless one day I decide to connect guitar to the computer...).
When I get used to a tool it's for long years, I wouldn't want to get into Renoise to find out after some time that it is a limitation (like I feel with oldschool trackers now).
I'm Windows only BTW, and would be able to pay for a DAW that I find friendly.

I use Mixcraft, but only because I'm recording / layering myself playing/learning guitar and it seems the best thing I could find for that. Whats really cool is it has an iPad app that I can use to remote kick off recording so I don't have to be near a keyboard/mouse to do a take.

I guess the point is, what you need depends on context.

There's an easy solution for this and it's learning to keep time better ;)

Ooops, scratch the "easy" part. What I meant to say "simple" ;)

Topic closed ;)

If you are used to trackers, which you are, I`d say that Renoise is a very good choice!
I am using it for about 10 years now and it is the perfect thing for me as I started with Noise/Startrekker 1991 and then used Fasttracker 2 for many years and now Renoise.
I don`t use other DAWs.

The demo is fully functional (only the wav renderer is disabled). Try it.

greetz

Ableton Live has a reasonably nice step entry mode, but you probably didn't find it.

I have Renoise but don't like it. Key shortcuts are not FT2 compatible enough and it doesn't save XM, so I have to use MilkyTracker anyway. For recording, mixing and MIDI it's not DAW enough, and for tracking it isn't tracker enough. For 4klang work there's no real alternative so I still have to occasionally use it.

Maybe you should try something different. Sibelius! You might learn how to read music, not just write. Could be nice?

Im curious about Ableton Live. I wonder about if there is a cheap version to buy, and what people in here who use Ableton did buy. I want to sync some hardware units like volca to some program like this. Ableton is pretty expensive to buy for an amateur musician.

or maybe it was Push that is expensive. Whats the difference between Push and Live? Since i have no idea what Push is.

I don't think there's anything really you can't do in Renoise. Sure it's not fit for everything, but then again what is? I've been using trackers for over 10 years know, adapting to other programs (especially piano-roll based, they're overrated anyway :)) has been difficult to me, and I haven't found a comfortable way of using one yet. Personally I've been spoiled by it's interface, it's so much ahead of everything else (yes even FT2, which is horrid as far as usability goes, people just are used to the horridness).

If it fits your usage methodology and it performs everything you need, then that's your best choice. People over complicate too choices way too much anyway, you can create amazing works with anything. If you're looking at handling a lot of audio recordings, it's not your best choice though as it's still missing proper dedicated audio tracks.

rudi: Bitwig Studio is a new-ish alternative to Ableton, but also somewhat expensive. Most amateurs who use Ableton (or Photoshop, Maya, etc) just torrented it anyway. There _is_ a cheap intro version (79 Euro) though.

Does Renoise already send pitch bend data from tracker pattern commands to MIDI and VST plugins? What's the point in "supporting" VST plugins in a tracker if you can't do trackery things with them. The last time I checked, they suggested drawing bends as automation curves. I thought, do they really think that's the way to go, do your musical ideas as automation curves ftw that's some tracker.

Renoise 3.0 comes with a shitload of cool features and if you're at ease with trackers, it's more than ever a good opportunity to make some music, and it's cheap… and it helps nice chaps.

And if later, you want to use some more complex DAW, think about it: Renoise will be handy as an internal VST (Redux anyone?) and it can Rewire™

Renoise has no "limitations", it just works differently. You'll probably struggle a bit if you want to use long wavs you recorded with external instruments… or if you want to make very particular groovy beats without sweating it by adding a bunch of pattern commands… but all in all you won't feel limited.

As a matter of fact, I use Renoise with approx. 4 hardware synthesizers, works like a charm. I love Ableton Live but for some reasons, my mind can't come up with "composing" with it, but I'm not trying hard enough I think.

@rudi: Ableton Live is cheap if you can live with less channels and already have a lot of VSTi and stuff like that, it's 79 euros only and limited to 16 channels and few other limitations. I know bunch of people who are using this version, they just learnt to make concessions when they're running out of channels (like, recording wavs, merging them…), it's also a cool way to work, like there's no tomorrow. That's how a lot of actual artists work so they feel limited and don't try to improve things constantly.

thanks tomaes and knl for useful info.

even though i found the latest development to go a little bit into the wrong direction, i'm stiill quite happy about how renoise allows me to install my musical ideas.
coming from a tracker background, you'll probably have at least a hard time to find a solution which is better suited for your workflow.
besides being technically on a par with the notorious DAW competition, renoise is also pretty reliable and allows plugins to be run in a sandbox, which enhanced the stability quite a lot, since VST crashes will no longer crash the entire host / kill your unsaved project.

however, if your music isn't as primitive as mine is (unz-unz-katonggg \o/ ), you might as well ignore what i wrote above.

Oh yeah. BitWig. Do test that out also. It has much saner "clip" system than Live does.
(I still think best is in Cubase)

obComposing: one of my frequent mistakes is to try and compose, arrange, perform, record, produce, mix and even master all at the same time. For some genres it works, but often the best compositions are done with very limited tools where I have to concentrate on the melody, chords and maybe only a couple of simple supporting elements. Like, first do a chiptune with three or four channels, and if it works, then it may be an actual song. ;)

Ableton Live is the best when it comes to jamming and improvising live, jazzy stuff.

i think reaper deserves more attention in this thread, although vanguard already mentioned it.
yes its a classic DAW but its powerful, small, has an unlimited trial version and if you decide to stick with it its very reasonable priced.

leGend, could you elaborate on what you don't like with Ableton Live's clip system?

knos, that reminds me: What do you actually do at Ableton? UI/backend/management? :)