The Gathering 2005 (yeah, I'm not easily deterred)
category: general [glöplog]
Ya... know...
Maybe the way to address this is to target a different audience. I mean, all 'hardcore' sceners will go to Breakpoint, because it's Breakpoint. But there ARE people, like the folks from Japan on another thread Gargaj, Dixan, and I have been active in, who might not want such a complete sense of scene immersion. And maybe that is where TG can go.
Kusma's right, you need to have something for recruiting new sceners. I distinctly remember sitting thru the music compo with Pinza at asm, and Pinza telling me where he was sitting in years PRIOR to being an active scener, as a gamer in the hall. (So all this about how gamers don't evolve - bite it (: )
Maybe TG should be where we as sceners suggest folks go who are younger, or less acclimated to things.
Yes, I'm accepting that it's not going to move (which means that no I won't be there.) But I certainly don't want to see it suffer just because it's trying to recover from some past years mistakes.
Hell, I dunno.
At least you're talking about it.
Maybe the way to address this is to target a different audience. I mean, all 'hardcore' sceners will go to Breakpoint, because it's Breakpoint. But there ARE people, like the folks from Japan on another thread Gargaj, Dixan, and I have been active in, who might not want such a complete sense of scene immersion. And maybe that is where TG can go.
Kusma's right, you need to have something for recruiting new sceners. I distinctly remember sitting thru the music compo with Pinza at asm, and Pinza telling me where he was sitting in years PRIOR to being an active scener, as a gamer in the hall. (So all this about how gamers don't evolve - bite it (: )
Maybe TG should be where we as sceners suggest folks go who are younger, or less acclimated to things.
Yes, I'm accepting that it's not going to move (which means that no I won't be there.) But I certainly don't want to see it suffer just because it's trying to recover from some past years mistakes.
Hell, I dunno.
At least you're talking about it.
Quote:
Maybe TG should be where we as sceners suggest folks go who are younger, or less acclimated to things.
Exactly. For example, at TG05 you're much less likely to witness the act of male-to-male fellatio being enacted on the main stage. :)
leia: I think you missed my point. I don't think extracting a "scene part" from the rest of TG is a good idea because of the recruitment. All sceners come from somewhere, and if it's something we have proven earlier, it's that TG has the good ability to make more non-sceners interrested in the demoscene, which is very important.
Also; we've had plenty of space (and chairs) in front of the bigscreen the last four years. :)
phoenix: If The Gathering drops all demoscene-related compos, it wouldn't be The Gathering any more. I am of course aware that we will never get those glory 90s days back, but I'm not really asking for that either. As a sidenote, Solskogen came out of the wish to arrange an all-scener party in the middle of summer, and many people from The Gathering are involved in it. :)
slummt: "Sharing" the compos through streaming is not really a good solution, no, just like you say.
sir garbagetruck: You're on to the core of the issue right there I believe.
radman: Almost guarranteed not to see it, in fact. Of course, if you make your way to the Complex Tower(tm) on day one, god knows what might happen. :)
Also; we've had plenty of space (and chairs) in front of the bigscreen the last four years. :)
phoenix: If The Gathering drops all demoscene-related compos, it wouldn't be The Gathering any more. I am of course aware that we will never get those glory 90s days back, but I'm not really asking for that either. As a sidenote, Solskogen came out of the wish to arrange an all-scener party in the middle of summer, and many people from The Gathering are involved in it. :)
slummt: "Sharing" the compos through streaming is not really a good solution, no, just like you say.
sir garbagetruck: You're on to the core of the issue right there I believe.
radman: Almost guarranteed not to see it, in fact. Of course, if you make your way to the Complex Tower(tm) on day one, god knows what might happen. :)
Quote:
All sceners come from somewhere, and if it's something we have proven earlier, it's that TG has the good ability to make more non-sceners interrested in the demoscene, which is very important.
A-fucking-men to that. I respect you 100x more today gloom.
computer people are like pokemon. the difference is that computer people have 4 potensially stages (pokemon has 3 stages).
stage 1: most likely gamer or irc-fucker
stage 2: scener, who get things done
(stage 2): linux dude, a.k.a "lost"
stage 3: a person, you got bored, and got a real life
stage 1: most likely gamer or irc-fucker
stage 2: scener, who get things done
(stage 2): linux dude, a.k.a "lost"
stage 3: a person, you got bored, and got a real life
Breakpoint?
Quote:
Maybe TG should be where we as sceners suggest folks go who are younger
truckie: no way in hell! we want quisten and duckers in bingen!
gloom: ok my bad, that wasnt the reason for declining last time i suggested this. then it was the money and the difficulty of two parties and blabla....
but its good that you think about recruitment, it's true that the norwegian scene needs that...
but then, sadly, i will just give up thinking more about tg and go to germany like i've done the last five years :) (damn, five years, wtf?)
but its good that you think about recruitment, it's true that the norwegian scene needs that...
but then, sadly, i will just give up thinking more about tg and go to germany like i've done the last five years :) (damn, five years, wtf?)
As chief of the demo crew at The Gathering, I feel that I should present my own views. I personally think that recruitment to the demoscene is a very important mechanism that has been overlooked. Parties have become more polarized than before, with a few having nothing but sceners, and lots of parties with nothing but gamers. Where do novice computer users or wannabe-sceners enter into this equation?
mode = RANT;
I believe parties like The Gathering are essential for getting new people interested in the scene, and thankfully our efforts these last years seem to pay off. The scene in Norway is gaining in popularity, and we see new talents entering competitions and IMPROVING in skills with every year. In my opinion, only a mix of sceners and non-sceners can make this process possible.
For historical and practical reasons, it's basically impossible to move TG to another time slot. Naturally, I think it's sad that so few sceners choose to go to TG. I know that some people want to go hang out with their old friends and tell campfire stories, but there's more to the scene than that.
I seem to remember a time when I was newbie, and I could walk along the table rows at parties and pick up hints and tips here and there. This is the culture that I hope to resurrect at TG, where interested newbies can learn from the old farts. Of course, if people are expected to leave TG for BP once they have achieved a certain level of elite-ness, this process is made more difficult.
Actually I think the moderate level of drunkenness at TG is quite relaxing, and my hope is that TG can be a place where sceners who like a bustling exchange of experiences and impulses can come to speak with both established sceners and wannabes.
People who want to hang with other old farts and get recklessly drunk (don't get the impression that I think this is "bad" or "wrong"!) can then choose to go to BP.
mode = NORMAL;
Of course, in an ideal world people could experience both, but while we're waiting for teleporters and time machines, it seems that people will have to make some sort of choice for some time to come. Spending a few days at TG before heading for Germany is one option, of course.
Oh, and one combined compo doesn't sound like too bad an idea.
mode = RANT;
I believe parties like The Gathering are essential for getting new people interested in the scene, and thankfully our efforts these last years seem to pay off. The scene in Norway is gaining in popularity, and we see new talents entering competitions and IMPROVING in skills with every year. In my opinion, only a mix of sceners and non-sceners can make this process possible.
For historical and practical reasons, it's basically impossible to move TG to another time slot. Naturally, I think it's sad that so few sceners choose to go to TG. I know that some people want to go hang out with their old friends and tell campfire stories, but there's more to the scene than that.
I seem to remember a time when I was newbie, and I could walk along the table rows at parties and pick up hints and tips here and there. This is the culture that I hope to resurrect at TG, where interested newbies can learn from the old farts. Of course, if people are expected to leave TG for BP once they have achieved a certain level of elite-ness, this process is made more difficult.
Actually I think the moderate level of drunkenness at TG is quite relaxing, and my hope is that TG can be a place where sceners who like a bustling exchange of experiences and impulses can come to speak with both established sceners and wannabes.
People who want to hang with other old farts and get recklessly drunk (don't get the impression that I think this is "bad" or "wrong"!) can then choose to go to BP.
mode = NORMAL;
Of course, in an ideal world people could experience both, but while we're waiting for teleporters and time machines, it seems that people will have to make some sort of choice for some time to come. Spending a few days at TG before heading for Germany is one option, of course.
Oh, and one combined compo doesn't sound like too bad an idea.
i vote for a combined 'mr freshness competition'
betong has a very good point. it's no coincidence that norway and finland are the only countries with relatively many active and good new/young sceners. the only reasons are TG and ASM. i think.
TG has definatly done a lot of good things for the norwegian scene the last few years. But BetongApe is wrong labeling BP as a place to get recklessly druk. There are a lot of people working on prods inside the partyhall at breakpoint, and there is definatly possibilities to learn from your random old idols (or whatever) there as well. Remember that even though you can find 100 people by the bond-fire at any time, there's still quite some hundreds of people inside the partyhall.
The Gathering lacks alcohol..
Allowing alcohol inside the party area is probably the only TRUE reason why international sceners preffer Breakpoint over TG.
TG lacks a large amount of international sceners because of that. or am I wrong?
Allowing alcohol inside the party area is probably the only TRUE reason why international sceners preffer Breakpoint over TG.
TG lacks a large amount of international sceners because of that. or am I wrong?
Activator: as usual you are wrong.
I believe that if there wasnt a competing scene-only party at the same time, TG would get more of an "ASM-status" with people boozing outside, like it actually used to be some years back.
I believe that if there wasnt a competing scene-only party at the same time, TG would get more of an "ASM-status" with people boozing outside, like it actually used to be some years back.
activator is either 14 or a very scandinavian.
or just wasnt at bp :)
Anyway, I choose BP 'cos i had a great time there twice already and TG is a bit too far anyway. It's not about alcohol as such, it's just that all my friends go to BP so if I want to meet them (which doesn't happen often), I should follow suit :) (And a million flies can't be wrong ;)
Betong:
Sorry, but that's bullshit. BP isn't an old-farts-meet-on-a-meadow-to-get-drunk party. A high number of people enjoy having a drink between working on their productions or while talking to friends, and a less than 2% of the visitors get really drunk at all. While I'm aware you weren't able to visit BP yourself to find out, you could check out the reports/website/pictures/releases to know better ;)
I also guess the number of "new sceners" at BP is bigger than the sum of sceners at TG alltogether. So...
Personally I don't believe in that "having gamers at the party helps recruiting new sceners"-crap anyway. All major parties that went the "a few gamers won't hurt"-route (The Party, Ambience,...) sooner or later either became gamers-only or died. People that are young, creative and interested in technology will get interested in the demoscene as soon as they stumble across it. You don't need 3d shooter compos for that.
And regarding alcohol and general party athmosphere: You only need harsh rules if you do a party for strangers who don't give a fuck about you and what you do for them as a party organizer. Yes, if you want the get the cash from the anonymous masses, you'll need strict rules to control them.
Over here at Breakpoint, we are able to trust our visitors. We don't need those rules. Our visitors are part of a scene were people respect each other. And while this may sound like love-peace-and-harmony-glibberish, the reality shows me I'm right: We are able to have a party with close to 1000 sceners who are allowed to drink as much as they want, run around with megaphones, burn down 5 meter high towers built of wood, sit naked on the main stage and still get the best releases the demoscene is able to do. And hell, even our sponsors like it.
So no, you don't have to be boring commercial control-freak to run a big scene party. As an organizer, you are able to choose. TG organizings has decided to take a totally different route than BP organizing, and I'm quite fine with that.
But next time get your facts straight before comparing TG with BP, will you? :)
Quote:
People who want to hang with other old farts and get recklessly drunk (don't get the impression that I think this is "bad" or "wrong"!) can then choose to go to BP.
Sorry, but that's bullshit. BP isn't an old-farts-meet-on-a-meadow-to-get-drunk party. A high number of people enjoy having a drink between working on their productions or while talking to friends, and a less than 2% of the visitors get really drunk at all. While I'm aware you weren't able to visit BP yourself to find out, you could check out the reports/website/pictures/releases to know better ;)
I also guess the number of "new sceners" at BP is bigger than the sum of sceners at TG alltogether. So...
Personally I don't believe in that "having gamers at the party helps recruiting new sceners"-crap anyway. All major parties that went the "a few gamers won't hurt"-route (The Party, Ambience,...) sooner or later either became gamers-only or died. People that are young, creative and interested in technology will get interested in the demoscene as soon as they stumble across it. You don't need 3d shooter compos for that.
And regarding alcohol and general party athmosphere: You only need harsh rules if you do a party for strangers who don't give a fuck about you and what you do for them as a party organizer. Yes, if you want the get the cash from the anonymous masses, you'll need strict rules to control them.
Over here at Breakpoint, we are able to trust our visitors. We don't need those rules. Our visitors are part of a scene were people respect each other. And while this may sound like love-peace-and-harmony-glibberish, the reality shows me I'm right: We are able to have a party with close to 1000 sceners who are allowed to drink as much as they want, run around with megaphones, burn down 5 meter high towers built of wood, sit naked on the main stage and still get the best releases the demoscene is able to do. And hell, even our sponsors like it.
So no, you don't have to be boring commercial control-freak to run a big scene party. As an organizer, you are able to choose. TG organizings has decided to take a totally different route than BP organizing, and I'm quite fine with that.
But next time get your facts straight before comparing TG with BP, will you? :)
So Ambience is what one would consider a 'major party'? Oh well, something new every day... :)
Quote:
Personally I don't believe in that "having gamers at the party helps recruiting new sceners"-crap anyway. All major parties that went the "a few gamers won't hurt"-route (The Party, Ambience,...) sooner or later either became gamers-only or died.
Quick, someone call Abyss. Assembly is dead!
After re-reading my post I have to admit it sounds more arrogant than it was supposed to do. I apologize.
As you sure can imagine, a lot of energy is put into organizing BP, and I (and probably the other orgas, too) don't have the feeling we are doing this for alcoholic old farts, that's why I found betongs statement rather insulting when in fact it probably was just a misconception.
As you sure can imagine, a lot of energy is put into organizing BP, and I (and probably the other orgas, too) don't have the feeling we are doing this for alcoholic old farts, that's why I found betongs statement rather insulting when in fact it probably was just a misconception.
scamp: Hopefully, counting to ten and taking a few deep breaths made you realize that I didn't intend to insult anyone or start a flame war :)
As you point out, I have never been to BP (as I've been busy with TG organizing). My impression of BP is therefore based on pictures, partyreports and what my friends who went there have to tell. They seem to emphasize all the cool stuff they did while drunk, people who passed out, and the occasional homoerotic happening. I personally think that these aren't elements that attract fresh sceners. And if this is the impression I have of BP as a party, I can't even imagine which impression (if any) people outside the scene have.
A quick look at the results lists from previous years of BP and MS show that most releases are from established sceners. This is of course fine, and many legendary prods have been released at the German easter parties (although the last event's PC demo compo was somewhat dissapointing). But if there is no influx of fresh blood to the scene, I believe the scene as a whole will suffer.
I've read and re-read my previous posting, and I fail to find the part where I talk about turning gamers into sceners. However, I think that young people with a creative streak and an interest in technology can turn into sceners. Actually, I know they can; I've seen it happen. The only problem I see with having gamers and sceners in the same (large) hall is when sceners think they are too elite to be in the same building as gamers. As radman1 points out, ASM manages to allow both gamers and sceners to attend their party, and still have a healthy scene presence. Anyway, gamers and sceners don't make up the entire audience at parties.
I believe that young people who don't know that the scene exists, or have only recently heard about it, are more likely to go to more general parties like TG, and I think it would be sad if they didn't have a chance of learning about the scene there.
Oh, and about those "alcoholic old farts"; I know quite a few of them, and I enjoy getting drunk with them at various other occasions during the year. I'm not trying to be insulting or show any lack of respect here. The rules about alcohol and drunkenness -at the partyplace- at TG have very little to do with trust in our guests, and very much to do with Norwegian laws and that fact that we allow minors at our party. And hey, I know a bit about the work needed to pull off a large party, and I can assure you that we don't make TG just for CS-playing 14 year olds screaming 'LOL' at the top of their lungs ;)
But I'm drifting off topic; I just felt I had to clear up the misunderstandings. I have no need to be disrespectful of the work put down by the organizers of BP, or the party's importance to the scene. What I really hoped for was finding ways to cooperate instead of criticizing each other's party philosophies, and I am very open for suggestions here.
As you point out, I have never been to BP (as I've been busy with TG organizing). My impression of BP is therefore based on pictures, partyreports and what my friends who went there have to tell. They seem to emphasize all the cool stuff they did while drunk, people who passed out, and the occasional homoerotic happening. I personally think that these aren't elements that attract fresh sceners. And if this is the impression I have of BP as a party, I can't even imagine which impression (if any) people outside the scene have.
A quick look at the results lists from previous years of BP and MS show that most releases are from established sceners. This is of course fine, and many legendary prods have been released at the German easter parties (although the last event's PC demo compo was somewhat dissapointing). But if there is no influx of fresh blood to the scene, I believe the scene as a whole will suffer.
I've read and re-read my previous posting, and I fail to find the part where I talk about turning gamers into sceners. However, I think that young people with a creative streak and an interest in technology can turn into sceners. Actually, I know they can; I've seen it happen. The only problem I see with having gamers and sceners in the same (large) hall is when sceners think they are too elite to be in the same building as gamers. As radman1 points out, ASM manages to allow both gamers and sceners to attend their party, and still have a healthy scene presence. Anyway, gamers and sceners don't make up the entire audience at parties.
I believe that young people who don't know that the scene exists, or have only recently heard about it, are more likely to go to more general parties like TG, and I think it would be sad if they didn't have a chance of learning about the scene there.
Oh, and about those "alcoholic old farts"; I know quite a few of them, and I enjoy getting drunk with them at various other occasions during the year. I'm not trying to be insulting or show any lack of respect here. The rules about alcohol and drunkenness -at the partyplace- at TG have very little to do with trust in our guests, and very much to do with Norwegian laws and that fact that we allow minors at our party. And hey, I know a bit about the work needed to pull off a large party, and I can assure you that we don't make TG just for CS-playing 14 year olds screaming 'LOL' at the top of their lungs ;)
But I'm drifting off topic; I just felt I had to clear up the misunderstandings. I have no need to be disrespectful of the work put down by the organizers of BP, or the party's importance to the scene. What I really hoped for was finding ways to cooperate instead of criticizing each other's party philosophies, and I am very open for suggestions here.
what my friends who went there have to tell.
thats the problem...
your friends are exactly the people which get drunken and start to piss behind the stage during scene.org awards... and thats my personal impression of viking sceners.
and what has my impression in common with yours... the fact that both dont really reflect the reality.
thats the problem...
your friends are exactly the people which get drunken and start to piss behind the stage during scene.org awards... and thats my personal impression of viking sceners.
and what has my impression in common with yours... the fact that both dont really reflect the reality.
the scene has a recruitment problem?
