Unconditional basic income
category: offtopic [glöplog]
You know what, fuck it I've stewed about being called narrow minded, a Horrible Person and having it suggested that I revel in others misery.
Here's a couple of stories from my life that I think maybe relevant to the topic and may better explain my viewpoint. I'll try to be brief whilst sticking to the details.
When I was younger I worked in a store for a large supermarket chain. I was the odd-job man doing everything from checkout chick to deli counter service. But mainly I worked on the backdock as the storeman.
Every night each dept. would send a trolley of "shrinkage" to the backdock to throw away - be it out of code goods, near code dairy or bread or slightly wilted veggies it all got chucked. Usually by me. And everything had to ripped open and thrown out so it couldn't be retrieved and eaten. I also had to lock the bins afterwards to stop dumpster diving.
There were a couple of homeless guys that usually wandered by around this time (clearly they'd cottoned on) and if the boss wasn't watching I'd throw them a few bagfuls of whatever I could. One day the boss caught me and bolloxed me. When I asked why we couldn't simply donate the near-use-by-date to a soup kitchen or similar my manager explained to me that the corporation stipulated that due to tax concessions for writing off shrinkage all goods had to be rendered inedible otherwise they could not write it off and therefore the loss would show up as that - a loss not a write off.
AFAIK this practice is still in use today & is a fairly universal method of getting tax concessions. So to those who said I revel in others misery - maybe you should think about that next time you're pushing a trolley around at you local supermarket.
On a side note I have had to use food coupons from a charity before (long story indeed) but rather than having a "middle class" reaction of feeling shame I was incredibly grateful that there was something in place that allowed me to get some food for my wife and I and nappies and formula for our baby daughter. The staff at the supermarket were very helpful and not at all condescending. TBH Bombe I think your view of people feeling humiliated about using foodstamps speaks more about your middle-class prejudice than it does about people in genuine need actually being grateful for some form of "safety net".
Which leads me to my next tale - sry for the tl;dr.
One of my sister-in-laws (SIL) is a junky. She has been since her teens. My wife and I have had to raise and care for our niece for several years whilst her mum traipsed around "poly-abusing" - I'd never heard the term before she was 'diagnosed'. If she could get something she would hock it and use the money to get high. On anything.
A problem we had was that her mum (monster in law - MIL) felt incredibly guilty so she would always give SIL a few bucks whenever they saw each other. Money which would very quickly be converted into drugs and the taken via SIL's veins, lungs or stomach. Often all 3 at once if possible.
So we convinced MIL to only give her things like food stamps, phone credit and to pay her rent (rather than give her money to buy drugs). And then not only were most of us broken into and/or ripped off but we also found out that SIL had 'sold' those things in order to buy drugs. It didn't matter what we did to try and break that process, SIL would find a way of using it to her advantage to buy herself drugs.
Clearly this tale is not the norm, but.. when strangers on the net accuse me of being narrow minded and a "Horrible Person" because I don't believe in handing free money to those in need with no expectations or checks and balances, that makes me think that there are a lot of people who would use a UBI to further their drug habits rather than bettering themselves with the free time available since they would be receiving money to simply not work. Maybe I am deserving of some pity after all. Definitely a cynic in this situation. I would really love to be proven otherwise. But experience has taught me not to hold my breath.
I apologise again for the tl;dr.
Here's a couple of stories from my life that I think maybe relevant to the topic and may better explain my viewpoint. I'll try to be brief whilst sticking to the details.
When I was younger I worked in a store for a large supermarket chain. I was the odd-job man doing everything from checkout chick to deli counter service. But mainly I worked on the backdock as the storeman.
Every night each dept. would send a trolley of "shrinkage" to the backdock to throw away - be it out of code goods, near code dairy or bread or slightly wilted veggies it all got chucked. Usually by me. And everything had to ripped open and thrown out so it couldn't be retrieved and eaten. I also had to lock the bins afterwards to stop dumpster diving.
There were a couple of homeless guys that usually wandered by around this time (clearly they'd cottoned on) and if the boss wasn't watching I'd throw them a few bagfuls of whatever I could. One day the boss caught me and bolloxed me. When I asked why we couldn't simply donate the near-use-by-date to a soup kitchen or similar my manager explained to me that the corporation stipulated that due to tax concessions for writing off shrinkage all goods had to be rendered inedible otherwise they could not write it off and therefore the loss would show up as that - a loss not a write off.
AFAIK this practice is still in use today & is a fairly universal method of getting tax concessions. So to those who said I revel in others misery - maybe you should think about that next time you're pushing a trolley around at you local supermarket.
On a side note I have had to use food coupons from a charity before (long story indeed) but rather than having a "middle class" reaction of feeling shame I was incredibly grateful that there was something in place that allowed me to get some food for my wife and I and nappies and formula for our baby daughter. The staff at the supermarket were very helpful and not at all condescending. TBH Bombe I think your view of people feeling humiliated about using foodstamps speaks more about your middle-class prejudice than it does about people in genuine need actually being grateful for some form of "safety net".
Which leads me to my next tale - sry for the tl;dr.
One of my sister-in-laws (SIL) is a junky. She has been since her teens. My wife and I have had to raise and care for our niece for several years whilst her mum traipsed around "poly-abusing" - I'd never heard the term before she was 'diagnosed'. If she could get something she would hock it and use the money to get high. On anything.
A problem we had was that her mum (monster in law - MIL) felt incredibly guilty so she would always give SIL a few bucks whenever they saw each other. Money which would very quickly be converted into drugs and the taken via SIL's veins, lungs or stomach. Often all 3 at once if possible.
So we convinced MIL to only give her things like food stamps, phone credit and to pay her rent (rather than give her money to buy drugs). And then not only were most of us broken into and/or ripped off but we also found out that SIL had 'sold' those things in order to buy drugs. It didn't matter what we did to try and break that process, SIL would find a way of using it to her advantage to buy herself drugs.
Clearly this tale is not the norm, but.. when strangers on the net accuse me of being narrow minded and a "Horrible Person" because I don't believe in handing free money to those in need with no expectations or checks and balances, that makes me think that there are a lot of people who would use a UBI to further their drug habits rather than bettering themselves with the free time available since they would be receiving money to simply not work. Maybe I am deserving of some pity after all. Definitely a cynic in this situation. I would really love to be proven otherwise. But experience has taught me not to hold my breath.
I apologise again for the tl;dr.
you have an ass face! AN ASS FACE!
That's canniba^W capitalism.
Or reverse digestive tract?
@ringofyre: As long as you don't line up with the cult of the world-savers-elite you are a horrible person. conform!
and if you read carefully you not just know now that you bedrudge other people might be happy, you also know the essence of what ultimately makes people happy: money.
and if you read carefully you not just know now that you bedrudge other people might be happy, you also know the essence of what ultimately makes people happy: money.
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TBH Bombe I think your view of people feeling humiliated about using foodstamps speaks more about your middle-class prejudice than it does about people in genuine need actually being grateful for some form of "safety net".
Yeah, all those people in countries with social welfare who nevertheless decide to be homeless beggars because they want to keep at least some basic control over their own lives are certainly the new middle class.
Also it's not money that makes people happy, it's freedom and said control. That's where the "unconditional" part comes to play. The "basic income" part is just an acknowledgement to the sad fact that in today's society you need money to be able to make even the most basic choices about how you live.
Nice out of context cherry picking kebee. Again. Maybe you should include the phrase above that one.
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On a side note I have had to use food coupons from a charity before (long story indeed) but rather than having a "middle class" reaction of feeling shame I was incredibly grateful that there was something in place that allowed me to get some food for my wife and I and nappies and formula for our baby daughter. The staff at the supermarket were very helpful and not at all condescending. TBH Bombe I think your view of people feeling humiliated about using foodstamps speaks more about your middle-class prejudice than it does about people in genuine need actually being grateful for some form of "safety net".
I thought empathy was for me, I align with the interests of these people who want to reduce the population via war and famine to 10%. I want to join their ranks.
Read away buddy.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/394986.Nature_s_End
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/394986.Nature_s_End
Hehe, will check it. Whitley Strieber, that guy who wrote Communion!
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Nice out of context cherry picking kebee. Again. Maybe you should include the phrase above that one.
You don't get it, do you? You only have one anecdote, I got multiple. Therefore by the laws of logic, I win.
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You don't get it, do you? You only have one anecdote, I got multiple. Therefore by the laws of logic, I win.
Oh. Dear.
Precisely my thoughts when I have to read you "arguing".
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Precisely my thoughts when I have to read you "arguing".
This thread looks more and more like the typical discussions about veganism. Including the notion of beeing ethically superior: Just because a big "U" is seen to ethically better than any "C" anybody could think of.
But its NOT superior just by beeing unconditonal. There is no way drawing that conclusion. It might be the exact opposite. And its not even a REAL idea unless some figures are beeing put up. 9€/Month like in Namibia is one thing, but here we are talking about if the BI shall be below or above sum social welfare would pay.
I'm really sorry kebee, I didn't realise this was a competition. You clearly know me and my background so well, you have so many more anecdotes than I do and your logic-fu is much stronger than my logic-fu. I concede - you win.
Horay for you.
Horay for you.
Next time, instead of so void rethoric, you both should solve your differences like gentlemen do. I mean in the chessboxing ring.
As fulltime jobs are starting to be exceptions soon, some kind of BI would totally encourage doing any kind of work. Nowadays it's easier to lay low at home behind closed curtains than doing couple days of work, filling all kind of papers to multiple different governmental departments (all ran by taxmoney) and seeing that your total income was 10 EUR after reducing the wage from welfare. Lucky me having a fulltime job now but that hasn't always been the case.
Also at least in Finland a BI idea is IMO more into right than to left politically, at least if it's done properly so that ppl would have more responsibility and freedom controlling their lives.
Also at least in Finland a BI idea is IMO more into right than to left politically, at least if it's done properly so that ppl would have more responsibility and freedom controlling their lives.
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by degauss:
you also know the essence of what ultimately makes people happy: money.
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by Douglas Adams:
This planet has - or rather had - a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small green pieces of paper, which is odd because on the whole it wasn't the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy.
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This thread looks more and more like the typical discussions about veganism.
oh man, FUCK those guys, vegans are the WURST.
I mean worst.
yeah, about time nature comes up with a new HIV or cancer. the longevity and number of humans needs to be controlled!
and how's that for empathy? ;)
@ 20 paces good sir!
In the world ruled by the laws of thermodynamics, an amount of left-wing lazy fucks who would want to get anything for doing nothing, would have to be proportional to the amount of people who get nothing for doing anything. Unfortunately one can not spend his/her energy in exchange for nothing ad infinitum, so your communist paradise UBImination is as possible as perpetual motion. I.e. defied by the nature's laws.
Socialism would totally work, but what to do with the freeloaders?
