Unconditional basic income
category: offtopic [glöplog]
metoikos: it's a good thing you're not moderating the forum then :)
plaf: I'm glad I'm not. ( :
That's why Gargaj and Tomoya and Gasman . . . not sure who other mods are . . . are superheros for putting up with it. ( :
I have nothing useful to say on this topic. All I can say is that all the oddly distributed data points I have are depressing, and that people have to eat somehow.
That's why Gargaj and Tomoya and Gasman . . . not sure who other mods are . . . are superheros for putting up with it. ( :
I have nothing useful to say on this topic. All I can say is that all the oddly distributed data points I have are depressing, and that people have to eat somehow.
Yet another succesful topic launched by Adok. He has a special talent for that.
metoikos: what's so particular about this discussion that they need to "put up with it" ?
wait..
is this one of those bloody EU-American things again? :)
wait..
is this one of those bloody EU-American things again? :)
money for nothing and chicks for free!
Maali wins!
It's rather depressing how deep "you must work to earn a living" is ingrained in some people's minds. Especially considering that automation won't stop progressing, and the same people all enjoy the fruits of shared wealth already as soon as they get sick (US citizens excluded) or, say, leave the house and stand on a sidewalk.
It's even more depressing how deep "you must work to be respected as a human being" is ingrained in some people's minds.
Or that the 1% richest people is sitting on 50% of the wealth.
It's like Gandhi said, "Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's needs, but not every man's greed."
Doesn't mean that it would work giving everyone money for free - some motivational factors could very well be lacking (as in "demosceners and other subculturally interested people are very good at doing stuff for themselves and eachother but really, we're not a lot of people, unfortunately"), but I totally buy the "save the tons of money spent on administrating the insanely complicated legal systems that govern the welfare payouts".
Or that the 1% richest people is sitting on 50% of the wealth.
It's like Gandhi said, "Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's needs, but not every man's greed."
Doesn't mean that it would work giving everyone money for free - some motivational factors could very well be lacking (as in "demosceners and other subculturally interested people are very good at doing stuff for themselves and eachother but really, we're not a lot of people, unfortunately"), but I totally buy the "save the tons of money spent on administrating the insanely complicated legal systems that govern the welfare payouts".
(the word "argument" was missing at the end of the last post)
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/09/07/rushkoff.jobs.obsolete/
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Our problem is not that we don't have enough stuff -- it's that we don't have enough ways for people to work and prove that they deserve this stuff.
I think its rather cynic to bet on automation and UBI while the bigger part of our wealth is beein generated by exploiting the "workforce" somewhere else.
degauss: my point was that automation is eliminating jobs alongside the race to the bottom (multinationals exploiting workers in markets where compensation regulations are more lax) . . . and in the end it will eliminate many jobs that previously went to workers in low-wage, low-benefit, and low-regulation markets as well as those in the G8 and so on.
And this is why we should all study economics and social policy.
I was saying to a friend who is a literature teacher the other day . . . so interpreting a novel is directly applicable to interpreting life, because it is a puzzle. But if the author knew what they were doing and/or weren't being bloody-minded, it is a puzzle whose solution is built in. Problems out in the world, although they may have a narrative just like the novel, do not have solutions built in. All you can do is gather the data, same as you would do with a novel, and then bang together various narratives that help you decide what the solution is.
And this can be applied to problems as personal as deciding whether to reproduce, or as general as assessing different voting systems.
And this is why we should all study economics and social policy.
I was saying to a friend who is a literature teacher the other day . . . so interpreting a novel is directly applicable to interpreting life, because it is a puzzle. But if the author knew what they were doing and/or weren't being bloody-minded, it is a puzzle whose solution is built in. Problems out in the world, although they may have a narrative just like the novel, do not have solutions built in. All you can do is gather the data, same as you would do with a novel, and then bang together various narratives that help you decide what the solution is.
And this can be applied to problems as personal as deciding whether to reproduce, or as general as assessing different voting systems.
we bloody well should NOT all study economics. We should be way, way, WAY more sceptical about economics and especially about economists.
Economics is not science, it's a bunch of opinions about a man-made system, and those opinions are very often wrong.
Economics is not science, it's a bunch of opinions about a man-made system, and those opinions are very often wrong.
@metoikos: I think i need to clarify. UBI and the FUBAR-state of the world-economy are two separate discussions. The discussion on the world-economy with its imbalances is about how our societies are going to/shall look like in the future - something where you don't just think about the well beeing of yourself but for the well-beeing of everyone.
UBI instead is in my point of view an idea of blatant egoism. It just focuses on personal concerns and omits the concerns of others. At the same time it states the promise everything will "self-organize" to the better, just by design. You already know it: The "invisible hand" and "self-organizing-network"-fantasies that worked so very well the past 30 years.
On automation:
UBI instead is in my point of view an idea of blatant egoism. It just focuses on personal concerns and omits the concerns of others. At the same time it states the promise everything will "self-organize" to the better, just by design. You already know it: The "invisible hand" and "self-organizing-network"-fantasies that worked so very well the past 30 years.
On automation:
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It's rather depressing how deep "you must work to earn a living" is ingrained in some people's minds.
Now that's just plain scary.
I'm not sure which utopian paradise you're living in kebee but I've tended to find that if I don't have a regular income (unfortunately to date I haven't found any one willing to simply give me free money - so usually derived from working) my hungry and homeless quotient tends to rise fairly sharply. I would tend to find that slightly more depressing than actually having a job or studying to get a job doing something I can take pride and pleasure in.
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I'm not sure which utopian paradise you're living in kebee but I've tended to find that if I don't have a regular income (unfortunately to date I haven't found any one willing to simply give me free money - so usually derived from working) my hungry and homeless quotient tends to rise fairly sharply. I would tend to find that slightly more depressing than actually having a job or studying to get a job doing something I can take pride and pleasure in.
it's kind of an imbalanced relationship. the incentive to work is to avoid being hungry and homeless while the incentive to provide jobs is to make money by getting people to spend the money they earned by working. in what utopian paradise do you live where there is a perfect correlation between those two incentives?
ideally i think that work should be done because it needs to be done. if, say, i spend 8 hours a day working on a useless product that you basically have to trick people into buying (at a cost to society definitely not limited to my time), how can i take more pride in working than being unemployed? don't get me wrong, i definitely think that there is a lot of work that needs to be done, but from a capitalist standpoint it may not all be worth the risk, and most people instead spend their entire lives working on fulfilling and/or creating artificial needs.
i think capitalism has driven the idea of work completely nuts.
we are living in times where the worth of a living being is measured in how much money it produces, no matter if animal or human.
and of course it seems utopian to think of scenarios where everyone can have a nice live no matter if he works his ass off or not, but the lone fact that some people find the idea even utterly wrong is what disturbs me.
i have made the experience that those who have to work really hard to make a living and those who work really hard to make a better living are those who dont want others to struggle less for the same amount of freedom: no pain no gain, eh?
imagine a world where everyone could actually follow what they want to and not be bound to a stupid job they dont enjoy the slightest anyway... i bet there would be more productivity coming out of it than of every kind of capitalist slave-labour.
yeah sure, you would have a hard time getting underpaid people to scrub your toilet so i better say you find some way of automating it or raise wages accordingly, damnit!
PRO UBI!
we are living in times where the worth of a living being is measured in how much money it produces, no matter if animal or human.
and of course it seems utopian to think of scenarios where everyone can have a nice live no matter if he works his ass off or not, but the lone fact that some people find the idea even utterly wrong is what disturbs me.
i have made the experience that those who have to work really hard to make a living and those who work really hard to make a better living are those who dont want others to struggle less for the same amount of freedom: no pain no gain, eh?
imagine a world where everyone could actually follow what they want to and not be bound to a stupid job they dont enjoy the slightest anyway... i bet there would be more productivity coming out of it than of every kind of capitalist slave-labour.
yeah sure, you would have a hard time getting underpaid people to scrub your toilet so i better say you find some way of automating it or raise wages accordingly, damnit!
PRO UBI!
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"demosceners and other subculturally interested people are very good at doing stuff for themselves and eachother but really, we're not a lot of people, unfortunately"
However, more people will decide to use their time in some artistic or scientific endeavour if they were liberated of the urgency to work in some irrelevant or unfullfilling job.
I actually do agree with both of you^, but and here's the kicker for me - I furthered my education because I was sick of doing shitty, salaryman mcjobs. That drove me to get an education in something I enjoyed and then allowed me to confidently start a business doing that thing. In my case I'd be a liar if I said was great at business - but then that's what accountants and book-keepers are for. I am however fucking good a building, installing and running linux servers! Yay for me.
My point is if I had been sitting on my arse getting a guaranteed sum every week, my rent was subsidised and I didn't have to pay for food I honestly don't think I would've had the same impetus to get up off my fat arse and better myself.
Having said that if I had a "buffer" of a UBI when I was starting my business it would've been a lot less stressful. I don't know that we would've necessarily fared better financially but it certainly would have taken some of the strain off.
I do agree that there are many mcjobs out there that are "makework" (my word I made it up - to create pointless, needless wasteful work in order to fill a position). And that all we do by doing these jobs is help the corporate machine to grind us down. To me tho - there are some jobs that aren't yet run by robots.
In this new UBI utopia where we all have free time to study because we don't have the specter of hunger or homelessness hanging over us I still wonder how long the queue for those who want to become Caribbean Bikini Inspectors will be compared with the line for those wanting to study to become sewer maintenance workers.
My point is if I had been sitting on my arse getting a guaranteed sum every week, my rent was subsidised and I didn't have to pay for food I honestly don't think I would've had the same impetus to get up off my fat arse and better myself.
Having said that if I had a "buffer" of a UBI when I was starting my business it would've been a lot less stressful. I don't know that we would've necessarily fared better financially but it certainly would have taken some of the strain off.
I do agree that there are many mcjobs out there that are "makework" (my word I made it up - to create pointless, needless wasteful work in order to fill a position). And that all we do by doing these jobs is help the corporate machine to grind us down. To me tho - there are some jobs that aren't yet run by robots.
In this new UBI utopia where we all have free time to study because we don't have the specter of hunger or homelessness hanging over us I still wonder how long the queue for those who want to become Caribbean Bikini Inspectors will be compared with the line for those wanting to study to become sewer maintenance workers.
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My point is if I had been sitting on my arse getting a guaranteed sum every week, my rent was subsidised and I didn't have to pay for food I honestly don't think I would've had the same impetus to get up off my fat arse and better myself.
I pity you.
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It’s like they are personally attacked by the notion of somebody else having enough money to live without having to work for it.
Since no-one gave me a handout (lets be honest here and call a spade a spade) when I was younger and working shitty jobs to keep the wolves from the door I'll refuse your pity and again make the point that giving free money to people rarely works out well. As I have said I had the motivation due to the fact that I didn't want to work shitty jobs any longer. My speculation that if I didn't have that motivation and your troll response is really immaterial.
On that note - since you "pity me" for what I have to say and you're so holier than thou - what was it that prompted you to start up a business that has not only helped pay off 1 mortgage but also helped feed, educate and clothe your family for nearly 7 years now?
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[…] and again make the point that giving free money to people rarely works out well.
And you know that because you tried it? Have there been any studies to that effect? Or are you simply assuming that every human is basically completely lazy and you are the notable exception?
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what was it that prompted you to start up a business that has not only helped pay off 1 mortgage but also helped feed, educate and clothe your family for nearly 7 years now?
As that is not what I want to do I don’t see how that is relevant. The point is that you had to work shitty jobs to not die. How awesome would it have been had you not been forced to do that? That you don’t know what to do with your free time is not really a problem of the UBI, it’s your personal problem, and that you assume that everybody else would simply lay down and start dying as soon as basic personal needs are met (just like you say you would have done) makes me want to pity you even more.
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Or are you simply assuming that every human is basically completely lazy and you are the notable exception?
I have to be honest - a lot of your posts aren't making sense now - Have I tried simply living off the welfare system? No. Do I think most people who are on welfare payments (in difference to those who get subsidised housing, are free healthcare recipients and food coupon recipients) are lazy. Short answer - yes. I've wiped the bums of people with disabilities, I've cleaned stables out of horse shit, I've replaced the plumbing in clients rooms in an old peoples home.
All jobs that gave me the impetus to do something different. And in all of those jobs I paid tax.
Now you and I know that we have little say in where our taxes go, but if I had the choice I'd rather they were spent on infrastructure or resources for either health or education. Not providing Johnny Dolebludger with his next can of lager.
Unless you are Johnny Dolebludger, in which case I'll find you a job and your benefits are cut off.
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For anyone who's given money to a beggar or homeless person - how much do you imagine is used to buy food or pay for shelter rather than on drugs or alcohol?
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A perfect example in that case of providing goods/services vs. giving money would be addicts. Do we give them money to provide drug-dealers with income or do we provide them with things like methadone and other free treatments?
Bro, do you even work?
You are so pessimistic. I suspect that, if some bold millionaire would give an UBI for life to 1000 beggars, in 5 years, at least 75% of them would have a job, a house, better education or, one way or another, a better life. They are not lazy people but people in extreme circunstances (trapped in poverty) that, perhaps with a bit of help, could go ahead and solve their problems.
The best thing of an UBI is that it provides a base for a more egalitarian society. Some works that you call shitty jobs would receive better salaries precisely because nobody would do it if they were low.
The best thing of an UBI is that it provides a base for a more egalitarian society. Some works that you call shitty jobs would receive better salaries precisely because nobody would do it if they were low.
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That you don’t know what to do with your free time is not really a problem of the UBI, it’s your personal problem, and that you assume that everybody else would simply lay down and start dying as soon as basic personal needs are met (just like you say you would have done) makes me want to pity you even more.
Having reread that bit - I think you misunderstood. I was speculating about what I wouldn't have done if I hadn't the motivation. Maybe you should read my post more carefully.
My personal time is taken up with raising my daughter, running my business, studying, volunteering for the many clubs and causes I support, coaching my daughters' sport teams, and drinking as much beer in my spare time that my body can handle. ;]
I apologise if you misunderstood. If that is the case then please disregard (but maybe read at least) my previous post.