Playstation 4 - Xbox 1 demos (neoGAF thread)
category: general [glöplog]
> Thanks, but the enthusiasm is about to need recharging here ;)
Dont want to dent your enthusiasm. I think its important to understand that demos are just made for fun. They are made by people who are often 30+, have good jobs, lots of experience. If they want to be in gamedev they probably already are. They're probably doing pretty well in it. Most demosceners (at least those in the big 5-10 groups which are the ones we're really talking about here when we're talking about demos on a platform, because we're talking about _good_ demos not some spinning cubes :) ) dont make demos these days to get a job.
Part of the process being "fun" is you get to focus on what you enjoy - and for many of us this means working on the platform we are happy on (PC), being able to focus on the creative parts, the new fx etc, not wrangling with the hardware. We do that for our day jobs in games etc. I wonder if many people doing oldschool or weird platform stuff are coding high level stuff in their day jobs and its a pleasure to do low level ugly hardware stuff in their spare time, i dunno. And while the console audience is big in terms of numbers, most _demosceners_ are on PC - so many demosceners wouldnt be able to watch your stuff. It wouldnt easily compete at a party. etc etc.
Dont get me wrong - if a publisher or console manufacturer showed up and offered a decent amount of money to make a demo on their platform, for whatever crazy reason that would be, it'd be interesting - as is any chance to get paid to do something that's fun (although it can make it not fun, so would require second thoughts).
I think that's the key point though. Demogroups (the good ones, as aforementioned) would need enticing onto a new platform because they are quite happy where they are. enticing means financial gain, fame, fortune. That means it would have to be a conscious effort by the console manufacturer, cost them money and resources to make happen. It happened on PS3 to some degree (plastic, farbrausch) and it happened to some level on 360 (easier for them to achieve thanks to xbox live), but it would cost money. For something with little obvious business gain as a result, it's quite a bold move to make.
Dont want to dent your enthusiasm. I think its important to understand that demos are just made for fun. They are made by people who are often 30+, have good jobs, lots of experience. If they want to be in gamedev they probably already are. They're probably doing pretty well in it. Most demosceners (at least those in the big 5-10 groups which are the ones we're really talking about here when we're talking about demos on a platform, because we're talking about _good_ demos not some spinning cubes :) ) dont make demos these days to get a job.
Part of the process being "fun" is you get to focus on what you enjoy - and for many of us this means working on the platform we are happy on (PC), being able to focus on the creative parts, the new fx etc, not wrangling with the hardware. We do that for our day jobs in games etc. I wonder if many people doing oldschool or weird platform stuff are coding high level stuff in their day jobs and its a pleasure to do low level ugly hardware stuff in their spare time, i dunno. And while the console audience is big in terms of numbers, most _demosceners_ are on PC - so many demosceners wouldnt be able to watch your stuff. It wouldnt easily compete at a party. etc etc.
Dont get me wrong - if a publisher or console manufacturer showed up and offered a decent amount of money to make a demo on their platform, for whatever crazy reason that would be, it'd be interesting - as is any chance to get paid to do something that's fun (although it can make it not fun, so would require second thoughts).
I think that's the key point though. Demogroups (the good ones, as aforementioned) would need enticing onto a new platform because they are quite happy where they are. enticing means financial gain, fame, fortune. That means it would have to be a conscious effort by the console manufacturer, cost them money and resources to make happen. It happened on PS3 to some degree (plastic, farbrausch) and it happened to some level on 360 (easier for them to achieve thanks to xbox live), but it would cost money. For something with little obvious business gain as a result, it's quite a bold move to make.
The only serious benefit of console demos to the console makers I can think of is that decent coders will learn the system. If you learn to code on something for fun, there's a fair chance you'll go back and write something serious for profit later with the skills you've picked up. A bunch of demos on a console might result in a bunch of indie games too.
Is that worth the work involved though? Unlikely.
Is that worth the work involved though? Unlikely.
(i realised gargaj posted more or less what i wrote just before i did)
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Minecraft is the grandfather of bad examples
Being the gold standard of what can happen does not make it a bad example. It's a great one that indie devs can dream about. But that's kind of on the side here.
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I think its important to understand that demos are just made for fun. They are made by people who are often 30+, have good jobs, lots of experience. If they want to be in gamedev they probably already are.
Being 30+ is understandable since all of us here probably got to know the scene in the golden age. Now that we are in a more barren landscape, that should be an incentive to find new ways to inject more life into it. Hope someone figures it out. And Smash, you have a special responsibility to make it happen ;)
*runs*
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Now that we are in a more barren landscape, that should be an incentive to find new ways to inject more life into it. Hope someone figures it out.
Maybe you should make a demo about it?
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And Smash, you have a special responsibility to make it happen ;)
Why is that?
It was a joke
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added on the 2013-09-25 15:00:16 by smash smash
The only serious benefit of console demos to the console makers I can think of is that decent coders will learn the system. If you learn to code on something for fun, there's a fair chance you'll go back and write something serious for profit later with the skills you've picked up. A bunch of demos on a console might result in a bunch of indie games too.
wild unfounded speculation, please strike from record
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while ive heard an argument for why someone would want to watch a demo (for free) on a ps4/xbone, i havent heard a good argument why someone would want to make one (this thread is not full of people from the handful of remaining good demogroups who could actually make this worthwhile, asking to make a great demo on these platforms for free), and i havent heard a good argument why a platform owner would want to throw the required money and resources at it to make it happen.
considering the percentage of demosceners involved with gamedev on consoles, it's not that unlikely for someone to have easy access to those resources at zero cost. also, making demos for new platforms is fun. boldly going where no one has gone before and all that jazz. remember?
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Quote:Minecraft is the grandfather of bad examples
Being the gold standard of what can happen does not make it a bad example. It's a great one that indie devs can dream about. But that's kind of on the side here.
Well. It's actually the worst example. It's called a survivorship bias.
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considering the percentage of demosceners involved with gamedev on consoles, it's not that unlikely for someone to have easy access to those resources at zero cost. also, making demos for new platforms is fun. boldly going where no one has gone before and all that jazz. remember?
Even if they would do it (which I guess they did at some point), they would have no means to offer the chance for anyone to watch it, both because of the technical problems (you don't just burn an devkit-deployed executable on a DVD to run it on a consumer-console) and the legal issues that their company is bound after licensing the development kit.
smash: you're talking about dragging active PC demogroups into console tinkering. while there are demogroups who like console tinkering on it's own. sure that having it cost to develop does bring up an extra hurdle there. but that never stopped the really determined folks from doing it anyways. and i don't see why it would start now.
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wild unfounded speculation, please strike from record
Make something for fun, look at code, realise you could tweak it a bit and make something sellable without much effort, end up selling a product for some extra cash. I've done it before.
Put simply: you want people writing for your platform, not the other platform. But while we can't easily write for either, neither has any real incentive to bother.
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we're talking about _good_ demos not some spinning cubes :)
Hehe, my last demo kind of fell apart, and i ended up making something quick for a laugh that fits that perfectly :D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbeq_b048MY
Not bad for a middle aged white man :)
Hey Smash would you have considered Yodel a "good" group before their DC demo? Or for a more recent example Titan before their Genesis demo? Well, maybe you still don't, but the point is I'm not quite so convinced your PC-friends are the only people capable of making worthwhile demos. Sure this thread is all talk and talk is cheap, but is talking down is cheaper.
Anyway I agree, Sony won't see an increase in revenue or considerably better employee hiring possibilities by catering to the demoscene. If a homebrew devenv for the PS4 video GAME console gets released obviously it will be for the homebrew game developers. It could be used for demos too, though.
Anyway I agree, Sony won't see an increase in revenue or considerably better employee hiring possibilities by catering to the demoscene. If a homebrew devenv for the PS4 video GAME console gets released obviously it will be for the homebrew game developers. It could be used for demos too, though.
a group who last released something 11 years ago, and a demo made on a platform that was released in 1988? this is what you're bringing up as the best placed to make demos on ps4?
yea, actually, i think i was right.
yea, actually, i think i was right.
If I understand the last point of debate correctly, It´s an interesting question. Will only the best of the best deserve (or be able to) to make stuff on this imagined PS4/XboxOne demo platform? Recruiting new talent and young people (felt strange writing that last part) to this 30+ club would be very healthy. It seems that they are not coming to the PC in large enough numbers today.
One of the fun things about the indie game movement is that good and new ideas trump graphical flash and production value.
Media molecule are enabling this indirectly through games such as Little Big Planet and its editor. Their sculpting tech demo could possibly also lead to some great, digital creativity if it is released.
One of the fun things about the indie game movement is that good and new ideas trump graphical flash and production value.
Media molecule are enabling this indirectly through games such as Little Big Planet and its editor. Their sculpting tech demo could possibly also lead to some great, digital creativity if it is released.
smash: for logic's sake, a console tinkerer group ressurecting to break through a new platform seems much more likely then an "active" pc group spending time on it unless someone throws money and hardware at them. simply because the active pc group is on pc for a reason. and the console tinkerers groups prefer tackling the challenge of breaking new grounds on weird hardware more than releasing 2 demos a year.
Of the people I've met who aren't already in the scene, I don't think giving them a PS4 dev kit would honestly work. Show them shader toy on the other hand, and they're usually interested.
ps: those hardware tinkering guys seem to like cracking open platforms for homebrew, so .. lets just sit back and wait eh!
Will the hardware of the new consoles be appealing enough for them? Or will the PC offer similar hardware for a lot less hassle?
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Quote:Did you understand what Smash said above?
What specifically are you referring to? That he's kinda depressed about the response on Kotaku?
No.
He said:
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while ive heard an argument for why someone would want to watch a demo (for free) on a ps4/xbone, i havent heard a good argument why someone would want to make one (this thread is not full of people from the handful of remaining good demogroups who could actually make this worthwhile, asking to make a great demo on these platforms for free), and i havent heard a good argument why a platform owner would want to throw the required money and resources at it to make it happen.
so what is left is just a bunch of people going "it would be nice if someone else would do this so i can watch it.. (for free obviously. and i'll probably diss it for some reason when it happens.)", which is exactly whats wrong with pouet/this scene nowadays.
You, immediately afterwards, said:
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if someone more understanding than those in the Kotaku comments are picking up and thinking about scene demos on nextgen platforms, perhaps it comes one step closer to reality.
So, either you don't understand what he's saying, or you're simply not listening. Or a combination of both. :)
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also, making demos for new platforms is fun.
Having done so on more than a few occasions, I'll say that that's a serious half-truth. It _can_ be fun, but mostly, it's just frustrating and a huge drag.
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the point is I'm not quite so convinced your PC-friends are the only people capable of making worthwhile demos
Oh snap, you're RIGHT! Oh wait -- he never stated such a thing. Nice straw man, but no dice.
@psonice i think for the fun part that is.
xb windows on ps4 and ps linux on the xbone are the most cracking jokes to happen. i can't wait... :D
xb windows on ps4 and ps linux on the xbone are the most cracking jokes to happen. i can't wait... :D
