Good demos more or less "killing off" a platform?
category: general [glöplog]
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...Can a demo that raises the bar too much kill off a platform, making people think "meh, no use even trying"?
I can't agree with this idea, because it would mean that making demos is only a matter of technical breakthrough.
What about the visual language that a demo conveys, or even a story it tells?
The possibilities in graphic design, editing and sound are almost endless IMHO, no matter if a technical level is supposedly unbeatable :)
On a more tech. point of view, even is the platform cannot be pushed further, the production tool chain can usually be improved, hence unlocking new possibilities.
Haha. Groepaz :)
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I can't agree with this idea, because it would mean that making demos is only a matter of technical breakthrough.
just look at this and this. clearly those are so technically advanced noone even dared to try to beat it and thus the platform was killed.
no. the platforms where killed by so called coders who think its too hard for them to set up a toolchain or even write an interrupt handler all be themselves.
not many sceners have a GameCube or a GP32; I certainly don't. That might have something to do with it ..
tons of sceners have gamecubes. them preferring raw "unlimited" power of PCs and being unwilling to throw away 20 years of direct-x knowledge and start from scratch using shitty toolchains and non existing support libraries might be somewhat closer to the truth.
"Tons"?
Part of the issue, IMHO, is that computers - vintage or not - have been traditionally open and development has been supported and encouraged: There are compilers, running software is just one Enter / click / LOAD / etc away and developing emulation has been something that hasn't been legally prevented or hindered, to the end that even if you don't run Windows, you have a reasonable shot at running some of the Windows releases with WINE.
Consoles (and I guess, mobile devices nowadays), on the other hand, have always been specifically designed to be closed, proprietary platforms with development access only given to partners and installation / execution access only given to "trusted" software, and in early cases it has been also hardware-dependent. This problem is two-fold because it not only throws barriers towards people wanting to create demos, but it also complicate the issue of actually RUNNING them because more often than not you have to somehow dodge the protection mechanisms. So your creation options are limited and painful, and your consumption options are limited and painful.
Compare that to e.g. crossdevelopment for C64 / Amiga.
Part of the issue, IMHO, is that computers - vintage or not - have been traditionally open and development has been supported and encouraged: There are compilers, running software is just one Enter / click / LOAD / etc away and developing emulation has been something that hasn't been legally prevented or hindered, to the end that even if you don't run Windows, you have a reasonable shot at running some of the Windows releases with WINE.
Consoles (and I guess, mobile devices nowadays), on the other hand, have always been specifically designed to be closed, proprietary platforms with development access only given to partners and installation / execution access only given to "trusted" software, and in early cases it has been also hardware-dependent. This problem is two-fold because it not only throws barriers towards people wanting to create demos, but it also complicate the issue of actually RUNNING them because more often than not you have to somehow dodge the protection mechanisms. So your creation options are limited and painful, and your consumption options are limited and painful.
Compare that to e.g. crossdevelopment for C64 / Amiga.
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"Tons"?
i am willing to bet: more than who own C64s =)
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This problem is two-fold because it not only throws barriers towards people wanting to create demos, but it also complicate the issue of actually RUNNING them because more often than not you have to somehow dodge the protection mechanisms. So your creation options are limited and painful, and your consumption options are limited and painful.
thats only half true and doesnt apply to a lot of "alternative" platforms. it is not harder to develop stuff for gameparks, gameboys or even playstations and dreamcasts than it is to develop for C64s these days. for all of them more effort is needed than installing a compiler, that is true =P
and honest, i am playing with this console crap long enough now that i can say that 99% of the times when people tell me why they prefer (usually) PCs over theses platforms (and that actually includes C64s) it is "the toolchains suck, the libraries suck, and i dont get the info spoonfed".
(and please keep the legal mumbowumbo out of it. that never was a relevant factor and didnt stop "us" at all =P)
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i am playing with this console crap long enough now
But that is kinda the point, you've done it long enough so your perspective is obviously biased. It's kinda like if Sergey Bubka would explain pole vaulting as "Oh it's easy, all you have to do is jump higher than everyone else."
And legal factor is in fact important when it comes to the idea of accessibility - what's harder, downloading VICE or rooting a PS3?
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But that is kinda the point, you've done it long enough so your perspective is obviously biased. It's kinda like if Sergey Bubka would explain pole vaulting as "Oh it's easy, all you have to do is jump higher than everyone else."
your logic is flawed, because the point isnt to jump higher than everyone else. the point is to jump at all - and that _is_ easy.
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And legal factor is in fact important when it comes to the idea of accessibility - what's harder, downloading VICE or rooting a PS3?
there is an entire generation of warez kiddies proving you wrong. and i wasnt talking about platforms like PS3 at all - there are more than enough of them where running stuff is trivial, and that fact has had zero impact on the number of demos released for it.
@ groepaz :
this. And i'm working on a WII demo (same toolchain as the gamecube). The plateform is not dead. But ok my prod will not be as good as the one above. But not dead:)
And the devkitPPC (if you refer to this one when saying about shitty toolchain) is definetly not a shitty toolchain. Did you tried to use it?
this. And i'm working on a WII demo (same toolchain as the gamecube). The plateform is not dead. But ok my prod will not be as good as the one above. But not dead:)
And the devkitPPC (if you refer to this one when saying about shitty toolchain) is definetly not a shitty toolchain. Did you tried to use it?
I just make demos because it's fun to do.
I do try to make things that are better, but in the first place it's about having fun for me.
I do try to make things that are better, but in the first place it's about having fun for me.
I try to improve mainly on my own previous work, which is easy enough!
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it is not harder to develop stuff for gameparks, gameboys or even playstations and dreamcasts than it is to develop for C64s these days.
I was actually planning a PS1 demo with branch late last year, but had to put it on hiatus (and possibly abandon it indefinitely) precisely because of the development software available, and even more so because of the documentation or lack thereof of said software. It's not even comparable to the abundance of software and resources when it comes to C64.
Gamecube hacking is fun! I made the only other GC demo on pouet :-). Source for that and a few associated tools is on github under "crtc-demos" btw. Please to be stealing it and making new demos! Kthx.
Also, seconded that devkitppc/libogc are totally sweet, in no small part due to the efforts of groepaz & others. Thanks!
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And the devkitPPC (if you refer to this one when saying about shitty toolchain) is definetly not a shitty toolchain. Did you tried to use it?
i am using it a lot - however in the eyes of many who are used to eg visual studio it hardly qualifies as a toolchain at all =)
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I was actually planning a PS1 demo with branch late last year, but had to put it on hiatus (and possibly abandon it indefinitely) precisely because of the development software available, and even more so because of the documentation or lack thereof of said software. It's not even comparable to the abundance of software and resources when it comes to C64.
you just dont get things spoonfeed like with other (popular) platforms. the info was widely available when the platform wasnt dead and buried =) and i am sure you can find the info you need even today, but ofcourse you have to dig a bit. psxdev.net is active at least :)
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I can't agree with this idea, because it would mean that making demos is only a matter of technical breakthrough.
I thought the whole point of demos was a opportunity to wave your edick. just look at what that 8ball prod did for 4k graphics.
it raised the bar so fucking high it now killed the 4k graphics demo category.
oh god at this rate we wont have a demoscene left!
i can assure u btw we didnt make 'Overdrive' to kill the megadrive, infact , if u see the 'beta' that was nearly released at Revision , (which features, like no transitions, less effects, and an overall rushed design) we wouldnt even be having this discussion right now i think.. it did give us the time up till evoke to polish the hell out of it, and judging the responce, i need to figure out how we gonna beat ourselfs the next demo =)
Overdrive killed titan. u read it here first. </sarcasm>
i can assure u btw we didnt make 'Overdrive' to kill the megadrive, infact , if u see the 'beta' that was nearly released at Revision , (which features, like no transitions, less effects, and an overall rushed design) we wouldnt even be having this discussion right now i think.. it did give us the time up till evoke to polish the hell out of it, and judging the responce, i need to figure out how we gonna beat ourselfs the next demo =)
Overdrive killed titan. u read it here first. </sarcasm>
THE SCENE IS DEAD!
alien: well you killed atleast the wonderswan :)
titan killed "alternative" :(
There aren't enough coders in the scene to populate all these formats anyway, besides how many modern releases are knocked out the week before a party these days? It's more than one or two. Now add in learning a new system outside of your standard demo tools. A really good demo used to encourage more people to the format, it's probably just there aren't enough people with too little time.
besides, it wasn't _THAT_ good. ;)
well yeah, so lets call a spade a spade people
titan still sucks.
titan still sucks.
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it raised the bar so fucking high it now killed the 4k graphics demo category.
it's good, it's specular. it's perhaps really advanced and technically impressive but it's not the only motivation in graphics... is it? visual styles are different and of different attraction. this is just one.
Well yes, the alternative platforms might have it a bit harder but then it depends on how much you really love your platform or want to discover a new platform. It was a bit harder with the GP32 and the other openhandhelds but I wanted to do it so badly. Meanwhile, having a PSP with it's stupid protection, I still have not managed to unlock it (diferrent firmwares? needing to get a pandora battery or something? I am not sure.. it didn't seem easy), I even only wanted to watch Suicide Barbie. That's why I at least love openhandhelds. And there are tutorials and people to help you in how to setup the toolchains.
