Bad programmers. Are they common, and how do they survive?
category: code [glöplog]
so university degree isn't worth anything? good to know. :)
like with every occupation that requires half a braincell to do right it's common
but one should exploit it as an opportunity to shine :)
but one should exploit it as an opportunity to shine :)
psonice: sounds like it's done by a ten year old kid...
smash: yeah, but it is also not that one could say that it is common. Computer science is not only programming. Some of my closest friends know shit about programming (and they know it), but have great knowledge about logics. They work on the theoretical part of computer science so that's fine. Would be like to ask a dentist about lung cancer... The only point is that dentists usually don't attempt to cure lung cancer :D
also some ppl get the three virtues wrong. layzness != "let others do it", impatience != "can't they do it faster", and hubris != "my great skills mean that the compiler must be wrong" or "many ppl manage to code somthing, as i am so smart i manage to code better then them despite the fact i have not yet learned how to code at all"
smash: yeah, but it is also not that one could say that it is common. Computer science is not only programming. Some of my closest friends know shit about programming (and they know it), but have great knowledge about logics. They work on the theoretical part of computer science so that's fine. Would be like to ask a dentist about lung cancer... The only point is that dentists usually don't attempt to cure lung cancer :D
also some ppl get the three virtues wrong. layzness != "let others do it", impatience != "can't they do it faster", and hubris != "my great skills mean that the compiler must be wrong" or "many ppl manage to code somthing, as i am so smart i manage to code better then them despite the fact i have not yet learned how to code at all"
Quote:
so university degree isn't worth anything? good to know. :)
Good heavens, no! You will find first-semesters writing excellent code, and you will probably find even more graduated students who wrote their first and last bit of code in first semester and never bothered about it again... Having studied computer science doesn't imply that you know how to code... You should, in theory, but since when is theory the same as practice...
A bunch of people I went to university with sounded like there was no drive and passion about it. Personal programming stuff for the fun of it? No interest supposedly because of coursework and such. So I asked about after they graduated. Probably not, due to doing it all day for work. Really?
On the other hand, though, I certainly met a few who were very zealous (in a good way) about doing all sorts of things outside of school and work. One of them is even currently working on his own 32-bit computing environment, for fun.
So while I think taking the courses and going through to graduate was worth it to me, it isn't necessarily a boolean indicator of the kind of person you'll get or how qualified they are. (as said above)
There are many competent people out there who don't have a degree in CS, engineering, etc. and are as good or better than a chunk of people who do. If your first narrowing criteria was "graduated from X with a degree in related-field-Y", you might miss out.
On the other hand, though, I certainly met a few who were very zealous (in a good way) about doing all sorts of things outside of school and work. One of them is even currently working on his own 32-bit computing environment, for fun.
So while I think taking the courses and going through to graduate was worth it to me, it isn't necessarily a boolean indicator of the kind of person you'll get or how qualified they are. (as said above)
There are many competent people out there who don't have a degree in CS, engineering, etc. and are as good or better than a chunk of people who do. If your first narrowing criteria was "graduated from X with a degree in related-field-Y", you might miss out.
I also second what people are seeing on IRC and such. I find a few things are common:
- People looking to get homework solved for them; more common during the school year
- People who don't want to read and expect info to just be handed to them or available at the tops of pages (though some people are a bit overzealous with doc|link-slapping)
- Vampires (not mutually exclusive with the previous)
Even if you didn't see any of this first hand, the fact that pretty much every IRC bot has factoids about homework, reading, etc. should make it obvious it happens often the annoyance was enough to pre-write a message to hit people with over and over.
and, unfortunately, some people are just enablers of the previous. Those who aren't may get labeled as unhelpful, "dicks", etc. if they hang out long enough. Somehow it's bad not to agree to spoonfeed a certain guy even though past history indicates he asks questions about the simplest things every time he comes in and doesn't appear to learn anything (or have interest in doing so).
- People looking to get homework solved for them; more common during the school year
- People who don't want to read and expect info to just be handed to them or available at the tops of pages (though some people are a bit overzealous with doc|link-slapping)
- Vampires (not mutually exclusive with the previous)
Even if you didn't see any of this first hand, the fact that pretty much every IRC bot has factoids about homework, reading, etc. should make it obvious it happens often the annoyance was enough to pre-write a message to hit people with over and over.
and, unfortunately, some people are just enablers of the previous. Those who aren't may get labeled as unhelpful, "dicks", etc. if they hang out long enough. Somehow it's bad not to agree to spoonfeed a certain guy even though past history indicates he asks questions about the simplest things every time he comes in and doesn't appear to learn anything (or have interest in doing so).
Having a degree in computer science doesn't guarantee great success as a programmer, and being without a degree does not preclude it. What actually matters is how much effort you will use to get what you want. The real failure is to not achieve something simply due to an unwillingness to work for it.
Bad progamers. Are they common, and how do they survive?
They are common and they survive because people that need such "expertise" have no clue about what shall be made and how it should work.
Would a "craftsmen.." comment explain all and everything?
Quote:
by Zplex:
They are common and they survive because people that need such "expertise" have no clue about what shall be made and how it should work.
It's really hilarious when people come in asking for help on, say, a website and it's for their own company (or a company they work for) that purports to offer services doing the same for others and the site is just awful. Then you sober up and get sad realizing that some poor sap is going to enter a contract with them for something.
A more interesting question is: "does bad programmers get paid less?" and the answer to the best of my knowledge is NO.
I almost regret starting this thread now, it's turned out pretty depressing :D
As soon they find out that a person is a poor programmer/engineer and causes more damage than good, they are usually "demoted" to manager.
The manager then hires people who won't make him look incompetent.
Quote:
and, unfortunately, some people are just enablers of the previous. Those who aren't may get labeled as unhelpful, "dicks", etc. if they hang out long enough. Somehow it's bad not to agree to spoonfeed a certain guy even though past history indicates he asks questions about the simplest things every time he comes in and doesn't appear to learn anything (or have interest in doing so).
Send those guys to #coders on ircnet, there won't be any "every time".
Quote:
The manager then hires people who won't make him look incompetent.
this is where authority actually loses it's value, but yo... funny manager that can't even do shit. :D
The weirdest thing I've heard yet regarding programming was: "you just write an 'if- loop' ..." (deutsch: "...da schreibste einfach 'ne IF-Schleife ...").
After the face-palming settled down, it became an ironic catch-phrase.
After the face-palming settled down, it became an ironic catch-phrase.
on some obscure compiler if-loops were way faster than whiles!
if-loops :D
*runs off to add one to his code*
*runs off to add one to his code*
if-loop:
Code:
if(condition) do
{
code;
} while(false);
if-loop? nice :D
char run = 0;
void run(run)
{
if(run++ <= 100)
run(run);
}
void main()
{
run(run);
}
char run = 0;
void run(run)
{
if(run++ <= 100)
run(run);
}
void main()
{
run(run);
}
I'm sure he actually meant IF-scheisse.
If-Schleife makes perfect sense, not academically, but if you take it verbatim it's just:
Anyway; About the "bad programmers" thing; That's not a new trend, most people with CS degrees are not good programmers and don't want to be. They have no aptitude for it. The App gold rush on mobile platforms just made it a lot more feasible for not-really-programmers to try and make a living writing simple nonsense programs (in the very early iDevice days, people go rich making fart apps), just like most Youtubers are not skilled videographers but try to make a living on short let's play and staged pets-being-cute videos. :)
Non-trivial, complex (desktop) software is still written by people who have a relatively decent understanding of programming, or so I like to think.
Code:
..if (condition)
....for(...) {}
Anyway; About the "bad programmers" thing; That's not a new trend, most people with CS degrees are not good programmers and don't want to be. They have no aptitude for it. The App gold rush on mobile platforms just made it a lot more feasible for not-really-programmers to try and make a living writing simple nonsense programs (in the very early iDevice days, people go rich making fart apps), just like most Youtubers are not skilled videographers but try to make a living on short let's play and staged pets-being-cute videos. :)
Non-trivial, complex (desktop) software is still written by people who have a relatively decent understanding of programming, or so I like to think.
Quote:
by tomaes:
Non-trivial, complex (desktop) software is still written by people who have a relatively decent understanding of programming, or so I like to think.
How do you explain Inkscape then? :P