pouët.net

What I fail to see is how one can go and pull that dreaded "objectification" argument out of ones ass when the real issue might simply be that you're, and me as well by the way, are not too keen on having it pop up on your screen when browsing Pouet in a crowded train, hipster-laden coffee bar or at work.

What? More boobs and milk pls.

plek: I think the two are different issues in different scopes; the whole NSFW situation is just what people treat as a momentary annoyance on their own expense, whereas the "objectification" issue is more indicative of a larger trend that I guess most people can ignore because it's "not their problem".

I have suggested before in ahem... other threads that we could maybe implement the [nsfw][/nsfw] tags.
Many other forums use them, they are part of the bbcode lexicon. And yes, I know that has little to do with sig's complaint.

Agree on the objectification-part not being cool, and agree on the creator of the logo, who is a very dear friend of mine, not doing it out of spite. A girl, bunch of gay guys, my one tranny colleague and so on are obviously allowed to say something really rude about us hetero males, as long as they dont turn it into a bad habit - then its just a joke, that can be fun once in a while. The same goes for hetero males doing bad jokes about women, gay guys, tranny colleagues and that guy who keeps claiming he is a bat. Do it once every two months and you just have a somewhat warped sense of humour, do it all the time, and you are a retard.

I do agree, that the objectification of women is both boring and kind of idiotic when done publicly, and it can feel like a larger problem. We have only recently begun to shed the notion that women in the scene are a) without talent and b) only accepted for their boobs. Maybe this is stems from earlier times where women were more uncommon in computers, but I have great problems naming a female demoscener who hasn't got more technical talent than me. And I feel accepted at all times in the demoscene. Especially when I visit your ...

So, please do not belittle the problem by saying that "boys will be boys" because that is not true - boys will be boys, but these boys have graduated to being men and real human beings. Act like it. But on the other hand - do not fly into a fit of PC-fanatism because someone makes a bad joke. I'd happily joke with just about anything, but I mean no harm, and I try to keep it at a minimum. I fail often, but maybe you can do better than me :)

(and I agree on the NSFW and objectification issue being two different things. NFSW here means snuff or porn, and even that would only get a raised eyebrow and a sneaking suspicion that maybe giving that guy a phd-grant was a bad idea).

ilmarque <3

And others choose to embrace because they think it'll buy them another step on the ladder to the Higher Ground.

I never thought I'd use this here line but: get a life.

At the moment, the best digital painter/graphician in the scene is a woman - in my humble opinion.

I agree on that plaf :)

Oh dear, there was drawn boobs on the site. Quick, cover your eyes, or you might be traumatized forever!

Seriously. I've seen straight guys giving each other blowjobs on demoparties. So what? It happens. Having digital boobs on a pouet logo is just cute compared to that. Being a woman in the demoscene, I'm just tired of all this feminist propaganda about female objectification and all that. In the end, what does it matter? Relax a bit, it comes with the culture.

Also... why do you care about boobs in a logo when there's actual porn among the pouet content? Priorities first, right?

Well it's the same lady in both :)

That you are not offended does not mean it isnt an issue jenni. Others might be, and that is the point. The fact that there is something worse out there doesnt mean this isnt an issue either. I do not ignore racists because there are nazis about. And this was a logo, throwing itself at your face when you go to pouet, not hidden in the pile of other insanely bad fun-productions.

And "the culture" is a bit of a bold statement. A few years back, 10 years maybe, we had a culture of hating on anyone who wasnt "elite", something that wasn't very welcoming either. New people would be labelled "lamers". So treating culture as a static phenomena is both naive and wrong. We can improve and so, welcome new people.

nic0: I thought the whole drama was about women as a whole gender being offended that there is/was/might be pixelated boobs in pouet. I just wanted to point out that it might be more the case of few individuals being hurt of said things, while as majority is accepting and sees no problem with all this.

And yeah, when you're woman in a demoscene, you just have to accept that certain not-so-nice things might happen at demoparties when people are not with their best judgement. You will see (half)naked females in productions, people might make derogatory comments of your looks, they might grab your body parts without asking and all that. Either you make a huge scene out of it or then you just deal with it with those people directly who offended you and not trying to pull the whole demoscene into it, like I think happened with this case. Yeah, it would be great to wear a low-cut shirt on a party without being worried that someone tries to grope you when they're utterly intoxicated, but I don't see that sort of behaviour disappearing anytime soon. There's always assholes, but no need to blame everyone because of the shit that few people did.

thats what I was getting at - the culture of not being nice to a specific kind of people (in this case, women) because you are a drunk idiot. Maybe we could all step up our game, and the next time a drunken idiot tries to grab your boobs, I will be like "not cool bro, not cool" and then guide him to one of his more amenable male friends, who might, or might not offer him a blowjob.

And you are right - I don't want to share responsibility with anyone for grabbing your boobs, but I was more getting at the culture of it. You are completely correct that we shouldn't make every little thing an issue of "the demoscene are a bunch of miso-bastards", but sometimes we are, and once upon a time we were like that to new people too. I just wanted to get at the culture of it, and maybe make the point that it seems like we can actually improve. You aren't the first to make this point, and I like to think that all of my near friends (the danes?) are responsible for me, as I am responsible for them.

As I said, I don't care about the logo per se, because I know that plaf hasn't got one inch of chauvinism in him, and who doesn't enjoy drawing a dick, some tits, a giant ass, or a turd once in a while.

I JUST WANT US ALL TO BE FRIENDS WHO DOESNT GRAB ASS, OKAY?

nic0: i'll take your one inch of chauvinism any day!

That said, wouldn't you have to afraid of such actions in any other place where you are around many intoxicated strangers as well? Drunk idiots are everywhere.

I hereby exclude you from my circle of responsibility.

Saga: Yes, it's a general problem but one would hope that people in the demoscene are more intelligent and above that to treat women as equals and not act like idiots. We'll see what happens.

nic0's group control reminds me of this (just replace banana with boobs):

jenni: I totally agree, but then again, we are talking about heavily intoxicated people, I don't think you can make much of a distiction between sceners and non-sceners there. :\

why yes, surely social intelligence is the forte of the archetypical scener!

Saga: considering how many sceners spent their youths on a computer instead of figuring out what the other sex is really all about, things are probably a bit worse at a demo party. Not that I've seen any issues at all i'm happy to say :)

My take on the logo: kill it. I couldn't care less if there are boobs in a demo, but if I send somebody a pouet link for a demo and the first thing they see is a pair of tits squirting milk, that's not really what I want to happen ;)

"you just have to accept that certain not-so-nice things might happen" -> "few individuals being hurt of said things, while as majority is accepting"

Wow.