Open sourcing pouet.net ?
category: offtopic [glöplog]
And let's not forget: Gargaj had help from others that are also shut out, like Tomoya, who silently performed due dilligence on code and fixes for years.
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First, analogue "is the BDFL here" (his words). He's not entertaining this thought at all (at least not that he has expressed), so why the fuck are we?
Dictators pretty much always consider themselves benevolent, doing what's best for their people while actually fucking up their country in a bad way. They pretty much always consider themselves dictators for life too, right up to the point when the angry mob breaks down the final door and shoots them in the gut, hangs them from a lamppost or whatever.
Not that I suggest hanging analogue from a lamppost :D Ideally I'd love to think he's read the thread again, seen the anger he's causing, and he'll come back and work things out properly.
psonice: I would like that too, but it seems he's more interested in reading pull-requests on Github.
You mean if he's in the mood to care about Pouet for a bit again?
yeah. stop with the ponies. stress the fact that analogue is a fucking cunt. coming back after an aeon of years just to save the last bits and bytes of his out-of-his-arse code before a proper update could take place. now we're stuck with his beyond repair shit cos he and his companion ps (dunno what you two have together, but i hope it involves enough lube) stress the importance of open sourcing a bucket of crap.
at least gargaj seemed a benevolent dictator during his "reign" anticipating shit within acceptable time and within acceptable context. analogues shows nothing but the opposite thusfar, not to mention that after 8 years of not giving a fucking shit about this place, i doubt he has any feeling whatsoever about the whole 'what fits in context and what not'.
so THAT is why i dislike your move. and you can go fuck yourself and ps. he seems to like it.
at least gargaj seemed a benevolent dictator during his "reign" anticipating shit within acceptable time and within acceptable context. analogues shows nothing but the opposite thusfar, not to mention that after 8 years of not giving a fucking shit about this place, i doubt he has any feeling whatsoever about the whole 'what fits in context and what not'.
so THAT is why i dislike your move. and you can go fuck yourself and ps. he seems to like it.
maali, i think now you're unnecessary rude. let's not excalate, and let's not throw ps and analogue in one pile.
it's not unnecessary rude. i just find it highly suspicious considering that earlier thread a year ago.
and point 2 still stands valid. analogue knows jack shit about the current scene. we might as well ask stephen hawking to coordinate the github. frankly, i would have more trust in him doing that properly than captain 'ban them all' here.
and point 2 still stands valid. analogue knows jack shit about the current scene. we might as well ask stephen hawking to coordinate the github. frankly, i would have more trust in him doing that properly than captain 'ban them all' here.
yeah even me as a brony are tired of the ponies fucking stop them already, about the drama i don't know as i have not had time to read whole this thread as i think i have a life
And as reminder:
WHERE IS THE MOTHERFUCKIN DATABASE DUMP?
\:D/
WHERE IS THE MOTHERFUCKIN DATABASE DUMP?
\:D/
What Gargaj can't do now that he was able to do before ?
Wouldn't it be more accurate to ask "What's Garg prepared to do after the shit fight that happened over the last couple of days brought on by this thread amongst other things?"
drop the (data)bass!
So, to sum it up:
- Analogue did that great site that pouet is (thanks for that), then gave the charge to maintain it to PS, who after many years gave it to Gargaj.
- Coming back after 10 years, Analogue suddenly feels like Gargaj is a dangerous maniac planning to takeover Pouet by doing a secret v2 (when he has been in charge for so many years and could have done it long before).
- To counter that (eventual... or even more: probable) evil plan, he forces the release of the current sourcecode without even asking for contributors permission (before actually doing it), but still thinking they agreed that working on Pouet involved giving away all their "kungfu" (as weak or strong as it is).
- Then because of the sceners reaction and his insecurity about that nasty hungarian (with reason, because Gargaj sounds awfully close to GARGAMEL!!!), Analogue closes all access to productions files and database and keep them all for himself.
- Then, he asks for willing contributors to help working on the mess (a role that Gargaj(mel) did for years benevolently before beeing booted out of the blue). And he even asks Gargaj to keep on working on it if he "feels like it", aften having been taken for a dangerous psychopath. Because it's known that being taken for an evil psychopath feels great and noone would be hurt by that. Right Gargaj? you like it when we all KNOW YOU'RE AN EVIL "DOCTOR CLAW"-LIKE PSYCHOPATH ;)
All in all, feels like perfect understanding of what Pouet needed, perfect project management and great handling of (auto-en)slaved human ressource (thanking them by kicking'em in the butt or using a good spiky whip).
I wished for more tenderness.
And more reflexion and dialogue with all parties before taking decision that impacts us all.
So, to sum it up:
- Analogue did that great site that pouet is (thanks for that), then gave the charge to maintain it to PS, who after many years gave it to Gargaj.
- Coming back after 10 years, Analogue suddenly feels like Gargaj is a dangerous maniac planning to takeover Pouet by doing a secret v2 (when he has been in charge for so many years and could have done it long before).
- To counter that (eventual... or even more: probable) evil plan, he forces the release of the current sourcecode without even asking for contributors permission (before actually doing it), but still thinking they agreed that working on Pouet involved giving away all their "kungfu" (as weak or strong as it is).
- Then because of the sceners reaction and his insecurity about that nasty hungarian (with reason, because Gargaj sounds awfully close to GARGAMEL!!!), Analogue closes all access to productions files and database and keep them all for himself.
- Then, he asks for willing contributors to help working on the mess (a role that Gargaj(mel) did for years benevolently before beeing booted out of the blue). And he even asks Gargaj to keep on working on it if he "feels like it", aften having been taken for a dangerous psychopath. Because it's known that being taken for an evil psychopath feels great and noone would be hurt by that. Right Gargaj? you like it when we all KNOW YOU'RE AN EVIL "DOCTOR CLAW"-LIKE PSYCHOPATH ;)
All in all, feels like perfect understanding of what Pouet needed, perfect project management and great handling of (auto-en)slaved human ressource (thanking them by kicking'em in the butt or using a good spiky whip).
I wished for more tenderness.
And more reflexion and dialogue with all parties before taking decision that impacts us all.
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What Gargaj can't do now that he was able to do before ?
access the server and the database.
Gargaj is a scene.org staff member, if he wants to wipe the database, he can do it now. He even has a dedicated account on the server hosting this. If I was scared of Garg, I would have switched hosts no ?
The old creds have been shared to a list of people that no one can list.
Regarding contributing, I've certainly not been dormant, silent yes.
Again, what Gargaj can't do now that he was able to do before ?
The old creds have been shared to a list of people that no one can list.
Regarding contributing, I've certainly not been dormant, silent yes.
Again, what Gargaj can't do now that he was able to do before ?
analogue: While you once have done a huge service to the scene by bringing us pouet, you are right now are doing the worst possible service you could do.
Taking away control from the current developers without their agreement, falsely claiming copyright on other's work, re-licensing other peoples source code without permission, and doing all of this without giving any shit about what the community and today's demoscene is saying really makes you look like an asshole.
Why in the world would you want to invest time again after 10 years of being out of touch with the scene if it makes people think of you as an asshole, doing the scene a disservice? And why weren't you able to *first* show that you really have regained interest after 10 years, by first silently working on fixes and the code base for a few months?
You are right now destroying all the reputation you had. And I guess chances are that you very soon will be fed up by people telling you that. Then you'll quit again, leaving a mess, demotivated current pouet developers, and a frustrated community.
In regards of open sourcing: There are two valid reasons why people would move an closed source project to an open source one.
1.) You are fed up with it and want to pass on control.
This does not apply here. You have not been on the development team for years. It's not your business. And very clearly you are doing the opposite of passing on control.
2.) The current development team assumes that a significant number of people would like to contribute, and therefore decide to move to a different form of project management.
Neither did we see any sign during the last years that besides a very small number of people others are interested to work on the existing code base, nor has the current development team seen the need to change project management.
You could have tried to work with the current developers, become part of the project yourself by actually submitting time yourself working on the code base, become a significant contributor again, gain recognition and trust by todays pouet users, and then provide valid reasons ("there are more developers not part of the closed circle who would like to contribute, and it's not going to work with the current management approach.") why this project would benefit from open sourcing it. You've done nothing of that, but instead abused the power you obviously shouldn't be having anymore.
Taking away control from the current developers without their agreement, falsely claiming copyright on other's work, re-licensing other peoples source code without permission, and doing all of this without giving any shit about what the community and today's demoscene is saying really makes you look like an asshole.
Why in the world would you want to invest time again after 10 years of being out of touch with the scene if it makes people think of you as an asshole, doing the scene a disservice? And why weren't you able to *first* show that you really have regained interest after 10 years, by first silently working on fixes and the code base for a few months?
You are right now destroying all the reputation you had. And I guess chances are that you very soon will be fed up by people telling you that. Then you'll quit again, leaving a mess, demotivated current pouet developers, and a frustrated community.
In regards of open sourcing: There are two valid reasons why people would move an closed source project to an open source one.
1.) You are fed up with it and want to pass on control.
This does not apply here. You have not been on the development team for years. It's not your business. And very clearly you are doing the opposite of passing on control.
2.) The current development team assumes that a significant number of people would like to contribute, and therefore decide to move to a different form of project management.
Neither did we see any sign during the last years that besides a very small number of people others are interested to work on the existing code base, nor has the current development team seen the need to change project management.
You could have tried to work with the current developers, become part of the project yourself by actually submitting time yourself working on the code base, become a significant contributor again, gain recognition and trust by todays pouet users, and then provide valid reasons ("there are more developers not part of the closed circle who would like to contribute, and it's not going to work with the current management approach.") why this project would benefit from open sourcing it. You've done nothing of that, but instead abused the power you obviously shouldn't be having anymore.
I just love how all non-coders thinks that pouet 2 is a big issue here. The real issue is obviously that people think it's scene.org staffs right to take away the ownership from analogue to themselves. Which is absurd, really.
Esp given analogue wants the development to be open source, the data itself he seems to want to claim closed for anything but the stuff that has historical value (ie the production database - which people essentially are worried about).
Whats funny is that all coders who has opened their mouths in this thread pretty much agrees on how to take a project like this forward. This does not include pouet 2 but a new open project with a road map around a new data model/api.
And there's really a lot of reasons why this is awesome:
A) Pouet would be pouet
B) Gloom and his christian out reach group could have a super moderated site, with all the same stuff as pouet has without NSFW threads
C) There would be a clear distinction of what is pouet-only and what is an historically archiveable scene production database.
D) Anyone who doesnt like the new pouet staffs decision would have to move on to Glooms heavily censored version of pouet or if analogue has a seizure and starts moderating stuff - move over to a more liberal (oldskool) pouet.
The only "negative" part about this is that buhu gargajs five year old undeployed renderstuff() php code is not in use. But really. I think we all have written code during the last five years that we have decided to throw away so I dont (as a programmer) see how anyone would be sad about not deploying five year old code today to a community. Just think about all the crap-work having to be done by one person to get it 100% stable in production. A proper open source team would have the same issues but a bit more balanced work load.
Personally I dont see me working on a closed source project like pouet just because theres no clear line of what is administraton and what is development. Developers from scene.org has taken the liberty to impose moderation while "fixing bugs". If theres a proper open source community around the code itself it would make it possible for us programmers who don't agree with moderation and administration staff what so ever to maybe spend some time helping out with pure technical stuff.
Another good stuff about open sourceing and having a public repo is that we dont have to scared about having "bad programmers" joining a close circle and then deploy crap code/security holes. Since the technical shit would not be the same as a deployment ftp-server.
Esp given analogue wants the development to be open source, the data itself he seems to want to claim closed for anything but the stuff that has historical value (ie the production database - which people essentially are worried about).
Whats funny is that all coders who has opened their mouths in this thread pretty much agrees on how to take a project like this forward. This does not include pouet 2 but a new open project with a road map around a new data model/api.
And there's really a lot of reasons why this is awesome:
A) Pouet would be pouet
B) Gloom and his christian out reach group could have a super moderated site, with all the same stuff as pouet has without NSFW threads
C) There would be a clear distinction of what is pouet-only and what is an historically archiveable scene production database.
D) Anyone who doesnt like the new pouet staffs decision would have to move on to Glooms heavily censored version of pouet or if analogue has a seizure and starts moderating stuff - move over to a more liberal (oldskool) pouet.
The only "negative" part about this is that buhu gargajs five year old undeployed renderstuff() php code is not in use. But really. I think we all have written code during the last five years that we have decided to throw away so I dont (as a programmer) see how anyone would be sad about not deploying five year old code today to a community. Just think about all the crap-work having to be done by one person to get it 100% stable in production. A proper open source team would have the same issues but a bit more balanced work load.
Personally I dont see me working on a closed source project like pouet just because theres no clear line of what is administraton and what is development. Developers from scene.org has taken the liberty to impose moderation while "fixing bugs". If theres a proper open source community around the code itself it would make it possible for us programmers who don't agree with moderation and administration staff what so ever to maybe spend some time helping out with pure technical stuff.
Another good stuff about open sourceing and having a public repo is that we dont have to scared about having "bad programmers" joining a close circle and then deploy crap code/security holes. Since the technical shit would not be the same as a deployment ftp-server.
Alkama: You got it wrong.
Analogue just started a thread about open sourcing Pouet, and working on an API that would allow anyone to retrieve data from the db.
He wants to do this so that NO ONE, not Gargaj, not Analogue himself, or anyone else would be able to "take over" or destroy Pouet. As in that situation a "competing Pouet" could be put up (or even if the situation didn't occur and someone just wanted to).
Then "the fanclub" started the "WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF POUET 2.0" shitstorm. And it was ON.
Analogue just started a thread about open sourcing Pouet, and working on an API that would allow anyone to retrieve data from the db.
He wants to do this so that NO ONE, not Gargaj, not Analogue himself, or anyone else would be able to "take over" or destroy Pouet. As in that situation a "competing Pouet" could be put up (or even if the situation didn't occur and someone just wanted to).
Then "the fanclub" started the "WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF POUET 2.0" shitstorm. And it was ON.
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when I saw this thread open I assumed that he would collaborate with Gargaj and others
Not knowing he wrote the basics of the site, I thought he was just a random troll. Turned out to be far more worse.
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Again, what Gargaj can't do now that he was able to do before ?
Make large-scale changes and decisions without having a massive argument with uninformed people.
what's all this paranoia with "destroying Pouet" about? really, wtf.
who on earth would ever have the remotest interest in destroying something that is completely irrelevant to begin with. demos are cool and all, and i've spent (and still plan to spend) big parts of my life in this demoscene thing, but honestly, lets put it all under some perspective - nobody gives a fuck about it but us demonerders (i say it with affection). really, explain me please, if you can, who the fuck do we think is planing the evil destruction of this place? and why would have such a villain being dormant all these 10 years.
also, i don't give a dump neither about security holes, code quality or opensource crap. i only know everything was quiet and functioning okeish, that there was a guy working on improving things, and that suddenly a nazi (you're welcome kb) pops up out of the blue (original coder of pouet? - i don't fucking care) and takes unilateral control, just because. that alone, regardless of code, security paranoia (PARANOIAAAAA), repositories and fanclubs makes me want to ban that guy from the community. if people here were half as nazi as he is, other admins (if there's still any) would have banned him already.
angry
who on earth would ever have the remotest interest in destroying something that is completely irrelevant to begin with. demos are cool and all, and i've spent (and still plan to spend) big parts of my life in this demoscene thing, but honestly, lets put it all under some perspective - nobody gives a fuck about it but us demonerders (i say it with affection). really, explain me please, if you can, who the fuck do we think is planing the evil destruction of this place? and why would have such a villain being dormant all these 10 years.
also, i don't give a dump neither about security holes, code quality or opensource crap. i only know everything was quiet and functioning okeish, that there was a guy working on improving things, and that suddenly a nazi (you're welcome kb) pops up out of the blue (original coder of pouet? - i don't fucking care) and takes unilateral control, just because. that alone, regardless of code, security paranoia (PARANOIAAAAA), repositories and fanclubs makes me want to ban that guy from the community. if people here were half as nazi as he is, other admins (if there's still any) would have banned him already.
angry
iq: Maybe you should read the thread rather than trusting the gargaj fan clubs words on irc. Since what you write is so far from what happent its scary. Just reading the first page in this thread should make you realize that.
since when is iq on irc?
since icq?
Analogue: Oh, by the way I do think a 'thank you' is in place, so 'thank you' for starting pouet. Scamp has a point there. Since I wasn't aware that you build it, I never got around saying that. Besides all the obvious recent negativity floating around, I did enjoy uploading prods here, so yeah good job on that. Now let us see what the future brings.
Hatikvah: I think iq's point is that it is irrelevant who was in control, since everything worked well enough before this powergrab. The point about the banhammer is valid. In a normal world people ask first before acting, even when they can say 'I was first!'