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Small and efficient code is very important for the embedded controllers found in the equipment I work with. "Size coding" is a must for all sorts of industrial instrumentation, monitoring equipment, etc., especially if they're running 24/7/365 in the middle of nowhere powered only by a backup battery and solar panel (that gets minimal hours of sunlight during the winter months).

thom: It's definitely a useful skill in some cases, but maybe not for the kind of things we're showing with demos. That was my point, should have made that clear. People looking for realtime graphics are generally more interested in the realtime graphics part than the size of it. A lot of times I've shown say a 4k to somebody and heard "imagine what they could do with a few MB" or similar.

Actually the whole tradition of doing stuff that's supposed to be impossible is probably a better way to show off what the scene is about, and it's more relevant to graphics. With PCs that doesn't apply so much (there's always better hardware 6 months later) but a lot of people work with mobile hardware now which is pretty limited (I do). Even webGL has serious limits that can be pushed.

Smash: a ton of good points there. I think just opening up to more platforms (like WebGL) and allowing interactivity would be good for the scene without changing it. That, and get more people to parties so they can experience it.

Yes. Having his prod on the bigscreen w/ live (qualified) audience reaction is still an unmatched experience (better than having 1M+ hits) imho.

hm, regarding interactivity or "dynamic demos" (to pick up a term that was coined by altparty) im actually surprised that only such a few people make productions based on those ideas.

i dont think most of the compo orgas are very opposed to interactivity in demos or would even ban those from competitions, more like the creators dont want to implement it because they have to give up some visual control for it.
while i understand that from an artists point of view, interactivity can be a great tool to
a) lengthen the time one spends with a production and
b) make it more interesting to the outside world.

mind you that interactivity doesnt automatically mean a 3d-flyby-demo where the camera is user controlled, it can as well just be to select scenes from a main menu, change music, color-scheme or anything that requires some sort of user input at a given time.

another field which is barely explored are network capable demos. while i can see the reasons behind it (many would probably suspect a network/internet enabled demo is nothing but a streaming video player) theres tons of options what to do with it (want to implement a algorithm thats very heavy on cpu/gpu? how about setting up some slavetros on some other computers and use their hardware as well? or why does it have to be fake-irc in demos? just log onto irc in realtime and watch the crowd in the partyhall cheer when they notice they can comment it in realtime).

im sure theres way more awesome stuff that can be done with interactivity and networking, but it seems to me demosceners (esp when they are doing this for quite some time) have somehow 'learned' to restrict their concepts to things which the past has proven to work/look good or are afraid that it isnt considered 'scenish' anymore (talking about tradition holding back creativity).

and/or fair competition.

but hey, you listed enough ideas to last you the upcoming year, right?

Interactivity beyond the ESC key perhaps would kill youtube and restore proper demowatching.

fucking hell no.



the scene isnt as far as im aware closed to webgl - there are webgl demos and compos. its more the reasons iq said that means high end pc coders arent really bothered by it.

Although I do not necessarily agree with it, the wikipedia article about "Demo", on its very first sentence reads:

Not that this means anything, other than even demosceners don't agree on what is or what is not "demoscene" :-)

Wikipedia, as always, lacks accuracy.

ham, I'm afraid the demoscene as a whole lacks accuracy: just read this thread :-)

and we make it. so we can change it (unless it becomes like the constitution - which we also made, but nobody dares changing these days :( <end of unnecessary political rant>

We should insert a WebGL interactive demo inside that Wikipedia article to fix it.

@gargaj
yeah i think its mostly the competition thing that set the rules in the past. im not saying to ditch those but maybe a little more openness wouldnt hurt either...

apart from that im just trying to give some input not telling you what to do (as if you would listen to me anyway ;), so whats wrong about it?

nothing, so why not walk the walk instead of talking the talk?

It's not that it's closed as such, but it isn't exactly 'open'. If I was somebody out there making cool stuff with webgl, how would my stuff fit into the average demo compo?

It probably wouldn't fit into the demo compo, and if it does it's at a huge disadvantage to stuff that has a high end PC under full control. It's not an appealing prospect to a newcomer, who's probably at a skill disadvantage to start with :)

Some parties have a browser demo compo. That can work, but there's not many of them and they still have the traditional demo rules afaik (non-interactive, no net access, must greet other groups via scroller and star field).

There's the 'wild' compo too, but that somehow isn't appealing when you're not doing something at all exotic.

Basically, it's not closed, but it's not appealing either.

Maybe it'd be interesting to do a mixed party at some point, with traditional compos plus some new thing to bring in people from other scenes. Or maybe even just an 'open' compo, where the rules are little more than 'Code something cool and show it".

I think both sceners and compo organizers are more than open enough for WebGL demos, but that the core of the problem is more closely related to what Smash touched upon: simply that there is little reason for people outside of the scene to want to contribute into it.

And still 70s by Alcatraz won the PC compo at Evoke 2012.


Well, someone didn't watch the Revision Browser Compo, did you? You'd be surprised about the ideas some ppl have.


How many other new groups have you seen in the other compos?


That's WiLD!

And no, you can't change something for the better to have more WebGL demos, if they'll come, they'll come. That people want to show off their stuff shows the big participation in the 1kjs and demojs, however making a full length demo is something else.

For the interactivity, I'm not sure if stuffing extra work into something that is only seen by ~250 people is actually worth it. The interactivity in ROME was neat, but wasn't something that made me watch it a couple of times, I did so because I liked the low poly models. However there was this Amiga(?) demo where you had to rub your wet finger on some port to make the hidden part start (by pleasuring a 2d human).
Thing is, I doubt a lot of people would take the time to find that out nowadays, or have you seen both parts of twogather?

I'm struggling to think why anybody into realtime graphics stuff wouldn't want to visit a demo party. And if you're attending, it's always fun to compete.

There are plenty of reasons not to go to a party actually, however if you attended the first it's starting to get addicting fast.
So the first hurdle of showing up on a party where you expect to see "the gods of the scene" might be a thing, even though you learn they only cook with water too. Really don't think this thread helps to get more people there, if I'd only lurk here and read this I'd fear to get punched into my face while attending. Knowing that it's not the case though :)

Like what? I can't think of any other reason not to go to a party than monetary reasons (that includes travel), anti social behavior, or health issues.

xernobyl: you can't think of reasons not to go to demoparties because you've always done so (probably, I have no idea). To not do something you've always done is always going to be hard to understand, so it's probably best not to use yourself as an example. :)

In short: people in the creative industries don't go to demoparties unless they're already associated with the scene -- they go to conferences, if they go to anything at all. A creative coding or media company conference is pretty much as far removed from the atmosphere of a demoparty as you can find, so no -- there is little or no reason for people outside of the scene to go to a demoparty unless they've already done so and liked it. Nice catch 22 there.

It all comes back to history and community culture -- both of which are both hard to explain and hard to understand.

Let's see, some are far fetched though:

• As nerd it's scary to go alone to a party, where you don't know anybody
  
• Too young to attend, parents think it's a LAN anyway
  
• Too old, have family, 1.5kids and a white fence
  
• You expect to meet Smash, Navis and DubMood asking you who you are and where your demo is - kb enters, wants to know that too
  
• You think you have to go to a party and bring something at all
  
• You think you have to compete with the big ones, and only can code a starfield
  
• You read this thread
  
• You think parties, though seeming open, are invite only
  
• They're neither a festival (as in music) or a conference, scary speaking time with unknowns in between
  
• There are streams, so why bother traveling?
  
• Parties are far away, cost money
  
• You think pants off is something that has to be done, well yeah
  

Thing is, if that hurdle is once taken, you know demoparties are just dumb fun, you learn the lingo fast too.
However, I can't think of anything to make it easier - there is a lot done in having people around the party know what is happening, sometimes the (local) news show up, and so on.

I'm not much of an example to anyone, yes, but from my short outreach efforts to "computer people", cs students and whatnot, I've reached that conclusion. Whenever I say something like "and don't forget to come to inércia demoparty" most people answer that they don't want to spend money, after I say it's free they say that they don't know anybody there...

Take them there then?