Copyright and proper crediting issues of classic chipsounds?
category: music [glöplog]
Hello sceners,
I`m working on a concept chipmusic EP which is loosely based on the old evergreen classic game "Impossible Mission". (Talking about the C64 version)
One tune uses the famous speech samples and some sound effects from Impossible Mission, in another one, I made use of some sound effects from "Boulder Dash" for example.
The EP is (of course) non commercial, the music itself is 100% composed by me.
I will give proper credits for the sound FX in the respective mp3 ID tags and again in the info text file.
I think that should be sufficient. Or is there anything more I should think of?
The EP will contain 6 tunes and I am aiming for "The Ultimate Meeting" as release date.
The EP will be published by the "Chippanze.org" chiptune label.
cheers and see you at TUM
Skyrunner of Brain Control
I`m working on a concept chipmusic EP which is loosely based on the old evergreen classic game "Impossible Mission". (Talking about the C64 version)
One tune uses the famous speech samples and some sound effects from Impossible Mission, in another one, I made use of some sound effects from "Boulder Dash" for example.
The EP is (of course) non commercial, the music itself is 100% composed by me.
I will give proper credits for the sound FX in the respective mp3 ID tags and again in the info text file.
I think that should be sufficient. Or is there anything more I should think of?
The EP will contain 6 tunes and I am aiming for "The Ultimate Meeting" as release date.
The EP will be published by the "Chippanze.org" chiptune label.
cheers and see you at TUM
Skyrunner of Brain Control
From a legal point of view you are violating the law of you do so in germany.
Read here: (Metall auf Metall Urteil) http://www.telemedicus.info/urteile/Urheberrecht/638-BGH-Az-I-ZR-11206-Metall-auf-Metall-Tontraeger-Sampling.html
Or you can otoh give a shit, use the sample give credits and hope for the best.
Read here: (Metall auf Metall Urteil) http://www.telemedicus.info/urteile/Urheberrecht/638-BGH-Az-I-ZR-11206-Metall-auf-Metall-Tontraeger-Sampling.html
Or you can otoh give a shit, use the sample give credits and hope for the best.
You should ask STIEGLER LEGAL!
@torus :
Thanks for the link, was very interesting to read.
But that was a COMMERCIAL production, which entered the charts back then, if I recall it properly, and they took something from "Kraftwerk".
And I even think, they did not give proper credit and did not ask for a permission to use it. Nowadays if someone wants to use material from another artist in a commercial production, he has to ask the GEMA for permission, the GEMA represents the artists listed there.
My chiptunes are NOT commercial, they will be free. So I wont earn any money with them.
Maybe I should try to contact Peter Liepa, the creator of Boulder Dash, in person to get a permission for example.
Or I should really give a shit, I just recalled, that I used a large vocal sample from Freddy Mercury singing "You dont fool me" in my Buenzli 2004 mp3 contribution. Nobody gave a shit. :)
Thanks for the link, was very interesting to read.
But that was a COMMERCIAL production, which entered the charts back then, if I recall it properly, and they took something from "Kraftwerk".
And I even think, they did not give proper credit and did not ask for a permission to use it. Nowadays if someone wants to use material from another artist in a commercial production, he has to ask the GEMA for permission, the GEMA represents the artists listed there.
My chiptunes are NOT commercial, they will be free. So I wont earn any money with them.
Maybe I should try to contact Peter Liepa, the creator of Boulder Dash, in person to get a permission for example.
Or I should really give a shit, I just recalled, that I used a large vocal sample from Freddy Mercury singing "You dont fool me" in my Buenzli 2004 mp3 contribution. Nobody gave a shit. :)
Copyright for a song/audio intro as a whole and individual sound effects were likely signed over to the game publisher at the time. This is standard fare, the creator can no longer exercise any control over his released content.
IP belongs to the creators of the chip sounds, as do all things that can be argued non-trivial in a product.
The samples have no IP (unless the person speaking had it as profession, which I doubt) and nothing to copyright. Besides this, you can use short samples regardless of sound source freely, as established in courts since around 1990.
This also means that since you're likely going to sample the chip sound effects, you can use them freely. Only if you use the chip sound effects as the little programs they are does IP and copyright come into play.
Apart from using someone else's IP in one of your own, or breaching copyright, giving proper credit is unrelated to these two. If you commit one of the two "crimes", giving credit will not affect your standing in any way.
Authors can only demand to be credited in licenses and contracts. Neither applies to your project. That means that you can give credit or not, sell the EP commercially or not, and the author has no control and can take no action.
In other words, you've already done more than you have to :) Now, that doesn't mean that you don't want to be a nice guy in the authors' eyes. That's usually the reason for doing so in the demoscene, which is a good thing. I think you've done enough. Some authors still care about retro, so you could drop them an email, I guess. Credit the company if you think it's their doing, or the individuals if you think they are the reason why the stuff is great. ;)
IP belongs to the creators of the chip sounds, as do all things that can be argued non-trivial in a product.
The samples have no IP (unless the person speaking had it as profession, which I doubt) and nothing to copyright. Besides this, you can use short samples regardless of sound source freely, as established in courts since around 1990.
This also means that since you're likely going to sample the chip sound effects, you can use them freely. Only if you use the chip sound effects as the little programs they are does IP and copyright come into play.
Apart from using someone else's IP in one of your own, or breaching copyright, giving proper credit is unrelated to these two. If you commit one of the two "crimes", giving credit will not affect your standing in any way.
Authors can only demand to be credited in licenses and contracts. Neither applies to your project. That means that you can give credit or not, sell the EP commercially or not, and the author has no control and can take no action.
In other words, you've already done more than you have to :) Now, that doesn't mean that you don't want to be a nice guy in the authors' eyes. That's usually the reason for doing so in the demoscene, which is a good thing. I think you've done enough. Some authors still care about retro, so you could drop them an email, I guess. Credit the company if you think it's their doing, or the individuals if you think they are the reason why the stuff is great. ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_sampling_(legal_issues). At least in The Netherlands there is no minimum or maximum duration for legal sampling, for (semi)commercial projects everything is illegal as far as I know. In Germany the law is different with the Zitatrecht and all that.
An interesting question is, can you release a track containing sampled material and put it on scene.org? I would say no. It might have happened at some point, but since most productions at demoparties get CC'ed, here is a roadmap to a legal conflict.
An interesting question is, can you release a track containing sampled material and put it on scene.org? I would say no. It might have happened at some point, but since most productions at demoparties get CC'ed, here is a roadmap to a legal conflict.
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But that was a COMMERCIAL production, which entered the charts back then, if I recall it properly, and they took something from "Kraftwerk".
Hi Skyrunner.
It does not mater at all if your song is commercial or not from a legal point of view.
The interesting point in the Metall on Metall case was, that it would not have been no copyright infringement if the two second sample in question would have been rebuild using the producers tools. E.g. if they sampled hitting metal with hammers and glue the same drum loop from their recordings everything would have been fine.
So: If you recreate the samples you want to use by yourself you're out of legal troubles.
But that aside: You'll be releasing in a small subculture scene, and I'm not aware of any case where scene musicans have ever been sued for taking samples. I'd just go for it.
If there is a ruling against sampling, almost all rap and hiphop is illegal in NL and DE. I think you may have misinterpreted the ruling.
@Photon: Thanks for the detailed comment. Very interesting and ecouraging. And what I just remembered: A large number of tunes on remix.kwed.org and amigaremix.com contain parts of snippets from the originals and noone ever complained. On the contrary, I think the authors enjoy it to see their old compositions brought back to new life. (Not in a commercial way, just free, seeing people still enjoy their tracks which would otherwise have been long lost and forgotten. But if someone makes money with these tunes (unauthorized) (like Dimmu Borgir did with the "Agony" music), thats pretty shitty of course.
@numtek: I remember at least one scene production which contains a lot of copyrighted material. That "Bluemchen" demo from "Kekse". (Did not bother me though)
@torus: If I recreated for example the speech FX from "Impossible Mission" it would not have the same spirit imho. But you are right, I`ll just go for it, give proper credit and thats it.
The EP will be free, I will earn nothing from it apart from some "likes" (hopefully) or "hates" (hopefully not^^).
@numtek: I remember at least one scene production which contains a lot of copyrighted material. That "Bluemchen" demo from "Kekse". (Did not bother me though)
@torus: If I recreated for example the speech FX from "Impossible Mission" it would not have the same spirit imho. But you are right, I`ll just go for it, give proper credit and thats it.
The EP will be free, I will earn nothing from it apart from some "likes" (hopefully) or "hates" (hopefully not^^).
The key thing is the meaning of the word 'sampling'. Imagine a cheese shop. You go in, and the guy tells you he has this awesome new cheese. So you ask for a free sample. He asks how big you want it.
Cool: A bite size chunk. (You want to sample that cheese, you take just a small piece - this is the meaning of a sample)
Not cool: The whole thing. (If you take more than a bite or two, it's not a sample it's your dinner)
From what I understand of the music rules (at least here in the UK), it's fine to sample so long as you don't take too much. Too much would mean you take the whole of the main melody or the chorus - this would be ripping. It's like asking the cheese shop guy for the recipe and then making your own similar cheese, he might be pretty pissed off :)
It could also be that you take a small chunk, but this small part is the core 'feature' of the song, like a particularly important speech sample (say 'n-n-n-n-19) - in that case the small sample can be as important as the main melody. It's like taking the holes from the swiss cheese.
Cool: A bite size chunk. (You want to sample that cheese, you take just a small piece - this is the meaning of a sample)
Not cool: The whole thing. (If you take more than a bite or two, it's not a sample it's your dinner)
From what I understand of the music rules (at least here in the UK), it's fine to sample so long as you don't take too much. Too much would mean you take the whole of the main melody or the chorus - this would be ripping. It's like asking the cheese shop guy for the recipe and then making your own similar cheese, he might be pretty pissed off :)
It could also be that you take a small chunk, but this small part is the core 'feature' of the song, like a particularly important speech sample (say 'n-n-n-n-19) - in that case the small sample can be as important as the main melody. It's like taking the holes from the swiss cheese.
Interesting and comprehensible arguments psonice.
In my particular case, there is no song, just the samples, for Impossible Mission has no music.
My original plan was to compose a complete new soundtrack for Impossible Mission.
Now it is only loosely based on it, the songs will all be part of a fictional storyline following the known pattern: Elvin Atombender is back and threatens the world again. Agent 4125 got reactivated to prevent Atombender from destroying the world.
But yes, I implemented ALL the speech samples (in different songs of the EP) from Impossible MIssion for some kind of story telling. "Another visitor", "stay a while, staaaay forever!" in the maze music and the famous "Aaarrrrgh" scream in a song that pictures the mine shaft, down which Agent 4125 is always falling. In that mineshaft song I also make use of some sound fx from Boulder Dash. (Boulder Dash - mineshaft go together I thought).
To complete the list, I used the snoozing from the Zak Mckracken intro in a "save point/ checkpoint song" and a beat snippet from "International Karate +" in the maze music and in that one ,too, some robot sound effects from IMpossible Mission.
The EP is meant as a worship to give IMpossible Mission music, it never had.
The songs are unique enough though, even if I`m forced to remove the respective samples, because I composed the music from scratch.
In my particular case, there is no song, just the samples, for Impossible Mission has no music.
My original plan was to compose a complete new soundtrack for Impossible Mission.
Now it is only loosely based on it, the songs will all be part of a fictional storyline following the known pattern: Elvin Atombender is back and threatens the world again. Agent 4125 got reactivated to prevent Atombender from destroying the world.
But yes, I implemented ALL the speech samples (in different songs of the EP) from Impossible MIssion for some kind of story telling. "Another visitor", "stay a while, staaaay forever!" in the maze music and the famous "Aaarrrrgh" scream in a song that pictures the mine shaft, down which Agent 4125 is always falling. In that mineshaft song I also make use of some sound fx from Boulder Dash. (Boulder Dash - mineshaft go together I thought).
To complete the list, I used the snoozing from the Zak Mckracken intro in a "save point/ checkpoint song" and a beat snippet from "International Karate +" in the maze music and in that one ,too, some robot sound effects from IMpossible Mission.
The EP is meant as a worship to give IMpossible Mission music, it never had.
The songs are unique enough though, even if I`m forced to remove the respective samples, because I composed the music from scratch.
For Germany:
What matters is whether the samples have an appropriate "Threshold of originality". I would say that this has here not been reached - so sampling is ok.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schöpfungshöhe
and torus is right - it does not matter whether it is not comercial music or not.
But the "Metall auf Metall" case was very special - it was related to the manufacturer(!) of the recordings and not the author (§ 85 Urheberrechtsgesetz)
But in Computergames we have no "Tonträgerhersteller"
What matters is whether the samples have an appropriate "Threshold of originality". I would say that this has here not been reached - so sampling is ok.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schöpfungshöhe
and torus is right - it does not matter whether it is not comercial music or not.
But the "Metall auf Metall" case was very special - it was related to the manufacturer(!) of the recordings and not the author (§ 85 Urheberrechtsgesetz)
But in Computergames we have no "Tonträgerhersteller"
Just for the record on legality of sampling and the argument "but the thing I make in which I sample someone else is going to be free, so nobody is hurt" is a non-argument. Sure, it gets way easier to defeat you in court if you charge for your music that contain stolen content, but from a purely legal standpoint, it makes no difference.
Local laws may vary of course.
Local laws may vary of course.
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Not cool: The whole thing. (If you take more than a bite or two, it's not a sample it's your dinner)
Dude, having *just* cheese is not dinner man! That's just disgusting! :D
Also, if you put your stuff online for free and you credit samples it's fine? I don't know how retarded GEMA is exactly (I think hella retarded) but how else is the internet riddled with remixes, mashups, mixtape rap and I don't know what else..
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An interesting question is, can you release a track containing sampled material and put it on scene.org? I would say no. It might have happened at some point, but since most productions at demoparties get CC'ed, here is a roadmap to a legal conflict.
lmao, there are a ton of demos using samples or complete commercial tracks and nobody gives a shit because the world doesn't know about scene.org.
what okkie says. tons (i'd say: the vast majority) of demos from back in the days contain ripped music and graphics and are a clear violation of copyright. and tons of them are available for download right here - making pouet no better than a random warez page =P except that noone gives a shit about you ripping a tune and using it for a demo.
+1
it's only interesting if you eventually pop up on a rather coarse radar
it's only interesting if you eventually pop up on a rather coarse radar
If you do everything totally by the book, meaning, according to the strictest possible interpretation of every conceiveable law, you can't do much at all. Staying at home might be safe, but check it with your lawyer first.
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Dude, having *just* cheese is not dinner man! That's just disgusting! :D
Being accused of eating too much cheese by a dutchman, i reckon that's a world first :D
And speaking of too much cheese, once in a restaurant in rome i saw a guy order parmesan cheese when he sat down. I figured it would be like a cheese salad or something as a starter... but it was actually a large plate piled with big chunks of cheese, nothing else. Wtf is that the copyright equivalent of, paying for the entire beatles back catalogue then playing every song simultaneously until your heart explodes?
> From a legal point of view you are violating the law of you do so in germany.
No. There is a new situation. The law does not apply anymore.
No. There is a new situation. The law does not apply anymore.
> Local laws may vary of course.
There are no local laws anymore. From now on there is only PEACE.
There are no local laws anymore. From now on there is only PEACE.
> Imagine a cheese shop.
No. Shops are disgusting and wrong. Why would you imagine something shitty and evil like that?
No. Shops are disgusting and wrong. Why would you imagine something shitty and evil like that?
Let's replace shops with FREE PLACES.
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paying for the entire beatles back catalogue then playing every song simultaneously until your heart explodes
what, like this?
Breaking a law doens't mean you'll get cought, or that it is worth even to find 100% of all people who break 'm. Ofcourse I know that some demos violate copyrights. The fact that they are still online doen't change their legal status.
Besides this yzi has leading.
Besides this yzi has leading.