Is there any point in making real-time demos?
category: general [glöplog]
I'll be honest, I'm just playing devil's advocate here.
I actually think it's sad that a lot of coders are using the latest high-end hardware and telling those who don't have it that we're holding back progress or words to that effect. Or they are kicking ass in competitions ONLY because they used the latest vertex and pixel shaders etc.
So my point is, why set the limits there? There are some demos/intros that still make you go "Wow!" but most of them are just meant to look pretty, and you don't need realtime coding to achieve that.
It's the same fate that pixel artists suffered. A load of half-sceners asked why pixel when you can use photoshop? Why copy in photoshop when you can scan? No use for gfxers any more. The same can be said of coders in the scene now.
I actually think it's sad that a lot of coders are using the latest high-end hardware and telling those who don't have it that we're holding back progress or words to that effect. Or they are kicking ass in competitions ONLY because they used the latest vertex and pixel shaders etc.
So my point is, why set the limits there? There are some demos/intros that still make you go "Wow!" but most of them are just meant to look pretty, and you don't need realtime coding to achieve that.
It's the same fate that pixel artists suffered. A load of half-sceners asked why pixel when you can use photoshop? Why copy in photoshop when you can scan? No use for gfxers any more. The same can be said of coders in the scene now.
there are people who dont copy mr. shame.
as coders are useless now and graphicians too there should be enough room for you to do a decent demo on your own now.
as coders are useless now and graphicians too there should be enough room for you to do a decent demo on your own now.
if there's no point in making realtime, how come there are still MUCH more demos than rendered animations released to the demoscene? :)
Xenusion: Yes there are people who don't copy and credit to them but I bet most of them use graphics tablets or scan pencil sketches. So the scene is open to all artists now and is not a skill specific to the scene such as pixelling or mouse painting.
Same can be said for music. Trackers aren't used much any more, so any musically talented person can participate in the scene.
Gargaj: That's my point. Why? Pixelling, tracking and coding are amazing skills, but they're no longer essential to the scene.
Same can be said for music. Trackers aren't used much any more, so any musically talented person can participate in the scene.
Gargaj: That's my point. Why? Pixelling, tracking and coding are amazing skills, but they're no longer essential to the scene.
shane: what the fuck you are talking about ?
if you are on drugs, please share, id like to taste drugs that you are on...
Art never made a point if you look deeply into its meaning. Take for instance the ready-mades during dada... it's either an expression of talent, feelings or a combo of both, same goes for demos. Not to mention the 'fun-factor' when doing this as a recreational activity... so dont kill the artist!
Doing it realtime is mainly done to 'push hardware to the limit', these days the game industry are way better at that than demosceners, but in the early days it was the other way round. Let's keep this little piece of nostalgia in our work, it gives the animation (realtime compared to pre-rendered) it's final extra touch...
Doing it realtime is mainly done to 'push hardware to the limit', these days the game industry are way better at that than demosceners, but in the early days it was the other way round. Let's keep this little piece of nostalgia in our work, it gives the animation (realtime compared to pre-rendered) it's final extra touch...
Yes there are people who don't copy and credit to them but I bet most of them use graphics tablets or scan pencil sketches. So the scene is open to all artists now and is not a skill specific to the scene such as pixelling or mouse painting. Same can be said for music. Trackers aren't used much any more, so any musically talented person can participate in the scene.
What's wrong with that?
I mean, OK, some people might consider pixelling and tracking "scenish" in the meaning of "mostly practiced among demosceners", but hey, they were never "scene-only"...
I don't see a problem with using hi-quality music, hi-quality graphics, or for that matter, technologically up-to-date code...
It's just that scene has to stay up-to-date - we can't go on coding rasterbars and shadebobs forever LIKE KEOPS :D
What's wrong with that?
I mean, OK, some people might consider pixelling and tracking "scenish" in the meaning of "mostly practiced among demosceners", but hey, they were never "scene-only"...
I don't see a problem with using hi-quality music, hi-quality graphics, or for that matter, technologically up-to-date code...
It's just that scene has to stay up-to-date - we can't go on coding rasterbars and shadebobs forever LIKE KEOPS :D
Ok, guess it's time for some stating the obvious.
The scene is not a service we provide for people who like to watch cool stuff. People make demos because they like to make demos. The scene exists because of that, and nothing else. It's not like we're working in a demo factory where our boss can decide that it's more economical to fire us and install an array of demo editors or animators instead.
Demos are the means and not the end of the scene. They are biproducts of individual creativity, curiosity and exploration. We do not make demos for others to consume. We do whatever we want. If I feel like coding a demo editor, I will. If I feel like doing some hardcore c64 asm h4xx0ring, I will. If I feel like making a prerendered animation, I will.
Shane, you might as well try convincing old ladies who like to paint garden gnomes that they should go buy a ready-made garden gnome from their local garden gnome shop instead.
The scene is not a service we provide for people who like to watch cool stuff. People make demos because they like to make demos. The scene exists because of that, and nothing else. It's not like we're working in a demo factory where our boss can decide that it's more economical to fire us and install an array of demo editors or animators instead.
Demos are the means and not the end of the scene. They are biproducts of individual creativity, curiosity and exploration. We do not make demos for others to consume. We do whatever we want. If I feel like coding a demo editor, I will. If I feel like doing some hardcore c64 asm h4xx0ring, I will. If I feel like making a prerendered animation, I will.
Shane, you might as well try convincing old ladies who like to paint garden gnomes that they should go buy a ready-made garden gnome from their local garden gnome shop instead.
agreed.
but im in it for the money and chicks, honestly!
Maali: If this sentence came from Gargaj I could believe this more. ;)
whaaaaat? :D
gargaj and chicks? MUHAHAHHAAHHAHAAH :P
keops wrote:
I really wonder why so many people spend so much time making 128/256 bytes intro
yeah, i'm still being left clueless about that too :D
oh, and on topic, i guess i'd be coding my own tools instead of my own demos if we'd all be making avis. there's just some things, no matter the limitations, that are better left coded than done with some tool (any video/multimedia authoring tool has its limitations, and i prefer hacking around the limitations of myself as a coder than hacking around the limitations of some piece of macromedia that some hip people made).
plus, divx has no rand(). end of story :)
I really wonder why so many people spend so much time making 128/256 bytes intro
yeah, i'm still being left clueless about that too :D
oh, and on topic, i guess i'd be coding my own tools instead of my own demos if we'd all be making avis. there's just some things, no matter the limitations, that are better left coded than done with some tool (any video/multimedia authoring tool has its limitations, and i prefer hacking around the limitations of myself as a coder than hacking around the limitations of some piece of macromedia that some hip people made).
plus, divx has no rand(). end of story :)
Quote:
Xenusion: Yes there are people who don't copy and credit to them but I bet most of them use graphics tablets or scan pencil sketches. So the scene is open to all artists now and is not a skill specific to the scene such as pixelling or mouse painting.
hasnt scene been always open to all kind of artists? i mean, after we all started use photoshop. anyway to me computer art is not just ansi or pixeled images, its more broad than that. and i hope that it sense.
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Same can be said for music. Trackers aren't used much any more, so any musically talented person can participate in the scene.
so what? we had got rid of trackers limitation. many people rather not use trackers anyway, i guess. trackers are still needed, you cannot make mobile devices play mp3 realtime at synch into good graphics.
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Gargaj: That's my point. Why? Pixelling, tracking and coding are amazing skills, but they're no longer essential to the scene.
yes they're. if you havent seen there is still scene artists around making cool gfx and people tracking music, and people coding demos and intros and not using demopaja like you do...
My couple of cents:
Realtime effects leads to smaller space requirements.
Realtime effects support dynamic demos.
Realtime effects allow "coder showoff". (And yes, saying that "but anything can be made realtime on today's machines!" is extremely ignorant.)
And last but not least, many people just love the aspect that you're really running a program, as opposed to an animation.
(Of course, this is not to say that realtime effects are "better" than offline animations, it's just that people like them. If someone likes animations more, he/she produces animations. It's really that simple.)
Realtime effects leads to smaller space requirements.
Realtime effects support dynamic demos.
Realtime effects allow "coder showoff". (And yes, saying that "but anything can be made realtime on today's machines!" is extremely ignorant.)
And last but not least, many people just love the aspect that you're really running a program, as opposed to an animation.
(Of course, this is not to say that realtime effects are "better" than offline animations, it's just that people like them. If someone likes animations more, he/she produces animations. It's really that simple.)
Quote:
hasnt scene been always open to all kind of artists? i mean, after we all started use photoshop. anyway to me computer art is not just ansi or pixeled images, its more broad than that. and i hope that it sense.
The problem with this is that any non-sceners can participate in competitions. Rock bands, DJs, VJs, web designers, art students etc could push all the sceners out of the way.
Does anyone remember the episode of the Simpsons where they were playing tennis? First Homer replaces Lisa with Venus Williams, then her sister takes over for Bart, then Andre Agassi steps in and before you know it, The Simpsons are sitting at the side watching the pros play.
I see the scene heading the same way. The "real" artists have pushed out the pixellers/mouse painters, the "real" musicians will push out the trackers and perhaps the VJs will eventually push out the coders, until the sceners are sitting on the sidelines observing a scene where they can no longer participate and compete.
The scene is also getting full of art lovers who don't care about technical talents or how stuff was made they just care about something that makes them feel whatever they feel.
In case no one has sussed it, I'm totally in favour of coders, pixellers, trackers etc but I'm taking the anti-oldskool argument to the next level and want to know if this is really where everyone wants to go.
(Hey Patrick Groove, I started a serious discussion here and where are you? :)
in canada i guess
Only reason why demoscene is stuck with realtime rendering is because people still struggle to beat the cool dxm effects they've seen in realtime demonstrations.
If dxm started to make prerendered demos so would everyone else.
If dxm started to make prerendered demos so would everyone else.
The problem with this is that any non-sceners can participate in competitions. Rock bands, DJs, VJs, web designers, art students etc could push all the sceners out of the way.
Why would they do that?
It's not like, say, Metallica would figure out "WHOO we can win prizes in these compo-thingies, we must do that instead of selling albums!"
Moreover, I would actually be happy if a commercial metal band would say "Hey, these demo thingies are cool, will you make us a realtime music video if we give you a track?"
If dxm started to make prerendered demos so would everyone else.
"That would actually require you to release something once in a while." /sagacity/
Why would they do that?
It's not like, say, Metallica would figure out "WHOO we can win prizes in these compo-thingies, we must do that instead of selling albums!"
Moreover, I would actually be happy if a commercial metal band would say "Hey, these demo thingies are cool, will you make us a realtime music video if we give you a track?"
If dxm started to make prerendered demos so would everyone else.
"That would actually require you to release something once in a while." /sagacity/
one release per year is more than enough nowadays.
Rock bands, DJs, VJs, web designers, art students etc could push all the sceners out of the way
yeah scary. someone could pay 40 euros for the breakpoint ticket and win the first prize at the graphics compo (50 euros) while poor little scene boys dont get anything.
yeah scary. someone could pay 40 euros for the breakpoint ticket and win the first prize at the graphics compo (50 euros) while poor little scene boys dont get anything.
...then the poor little scene boys will realize all the years they spent in the scene has been completely pointless and they should have gone to university and studied traditional art instead. Hell, maybe they'd even get a qualification, a girlfriend and some (non-internet) friends!
And by Rock bands, I don't mean commercial rock bands, I meant the sort of bands who do gigs in pubs, student bands, buskers, wedding singers etc who are undiscovered but still more talented than 95% of scene musicians.
So in the end scene parties will just be talent pageants for anyone to compete and many of the top sceners are inadequate compared to artists/musicians/animators outside of the scene.
And by Rock bands, I don't mean commercial rock bands, I meant the sort of bands who do gigs in pubs, student bands, buskers, wedding singers etc who are undiscovered but still more talented than 95% of scene musicians.
So in the end scene parties will just be talent pageants for anyone to compete and many of the top sceners are inadequate compared to artists/musicians/animators outside of the scene.
*hap*
