pouët.net

Seems that proposal for banning D3D from 4k is mostly supported by OpenGL coders, still wondering why you care so much about D3D guys, some pleasure to remove the toys from other kids?

Again, for years, D3D runtime has been installed by compos/users on Windows machine (with d3dcompiler arround), you will need to install it *anyway* on your Windows 8 box in order to play existing intro/demo released before Windows 8 (unless they are not using any d3dx/d3dcompiler functions of course) or to play legacy games...etc. So until this runtime is working on a machine, I don't see the point to urgently ban it.

Otherwise, lets play this absurd battle: Do you know that OpenGL applications are forbidden to run from Metro App? Microsoft is making OpenGL a life harder in Windows 8, will Windows 9 still allow OpenGL?, not sure... why can't we get rid of OpenGL at the same time today, hm?

You need a several megabyte DLL to run your 4k intro on your several gigabyte OS with a graphics driver which in itself probably is 100s of megabytes? Oh noez! Why not stipulate that all size demos must run without a big OS, say loaded from DOS. Just like the good old days.

You do know who is taking the toys away in this case (hint: it's not the ppl discussing the compo rules here). There's bound to be some sort of transition period before Windows 8 becomes too common to ignore, and after that it becomes a question of whether everyone else than demosceners can even run the productions. A 4k doesn't sound nearly as impressive anymore if you need to download and install extra dlls just to run it. Maybe the state of affairs should be considered a challenge - as it's always been with small intros - more than the end of the world for D3D intros. I'm quite sure some brainiac will find a way.

Solution to all problems: Take 16 Rrrola's and let them code 4k for MS-DOS. ;)

Nobody has suggested banning D3D. It's the X in the end we're worrying about.. And that should be kept at least until there's a better solution.

D3DCompiler_43.dll is part of DirectX End User June 2010 Runtime and it doesn't have an X, but yeah, the vast majority of 4K D3D intros are using d3d(x)9 stuffs.

xoofx: I have to install dosbox to run old demos too - does that mean dosbox should be standard on compo boxes? MS have depreciated the dx runtime and they're not (so far) providing an alternative other than "include this huge file in your archive".

Basically the stuff people are using nowadays is going legacy, just like MSDOS did. We could ignore that and continue using the old stuff, sure, but what would the scene be like if we all made demos for dos and told people to install an emulator to run it? :)

Just like when dos died there's going to be a transition period, and I don't think d3dx etc. should be immediately banned, but it's going to have to disappear if we want 4Ks to continue being cool (and still 4k ;) in future.

This is why I suggest allowing people to submit their demos for xp/win7 under the current rules, or win 8 without d3dx and the compiler. If/when win8 becomes standard, so do the new 'no d3dx' rules.

And yes, if you want to make demos for metro, you're not going to get opengl if what you say is right. If that's the standard under win9 then openGL coders will have to switch API or platform.

I suspect there's going to be some big changes in the next few years. MS want to go with metro, the closed app store, and direct x. A lot of their customers aren't going to like that - us included :) And windows doesn't have the monopoly power it once had, so maybe cross-platform compatibility is going to be a lot more important - meaning opengl for graphics. I think the shitstorm over 4K rules is just the beginning.

what he said.



*COUGH*amiga*COUGH*

if i was playing devils advocate, i would say this:
- most (almost all) 4ks these days are not really impressive from a "wow 4096" point of view, because we all know whats involved - one big-ass raymarching shader which is as obfuscaed as possible, and a soundtrack made with 4klang (or similar) and packed with crinkler. these are not the days of the average 4k being a feat of technical genius. that probably coincided with the increase in quantity and quality of the average 4k, though.
you could basically have a "tiny shadertoy shader" compo that would do most of the job. :)
- your average scener is probably not blinded by the "omg 4k i wish they worked at microsoft so windows only came on 1 floppy disk" myth, and is happy to see something cool that works within well-understood limits (that it requires some OS components, there are things out there to help, but its still hard to do something really cool). they probably dont care that they have to have d3dx installed, really; just as they dont care they have to get the right gfx drivers installed. (and they probably run it on youtube anyway.)
- your average non-scener who sees these still believes the lie and is going to watch it on youtube anyway - they are quite happy to read that it only took 4k in the quoted info.

in other words, accept the 4k compo for what it is / has become, allow d3dx dlls and let people get on with making stuff for fun, until people get bored of it and it dies out. it wont be the first demoscene category that doesnt necessarily have relevance to modern computing now, will it?

or go all restrictive, only allow a vanilla os install, see what happens when people get forced back to basics and have to be clever again.

hey, maybe there's room for both.

So f*cking looking forward too it! And I see that as a good possible start for a new kind of evolution phase.

i think what should be done is that bero organises all 4k compos, and the use of his OS is mandatory.

*to
groepaz: nice troll.
Knoeki: more ponies please. maybe something with killing the 4k scene and sad ponies.

4k is going to be the new 64k...

wait, i thought 64k was the new 40k which was the old dentro?

Smash:

"Amiga.." Yep. But amiga is an oldschool platform, we don't want to make PC an oldschool platform just yet. Maybe in a few years if the market changes a whole lot, or metro becomes standard, but for now it's newschool and should mean current hardware and current software. If "current" is win8 and d3dx is depreciated, 4k just got harder.

"Room for both" - exactly. The current platform isn't win 8. It's a mix of a little 8, mostly 7, and some xp still. Plus a sprinkling of mac and linux. Any of those are valid newschool / PC platforms today (compo rules / practicalities aside). D3dx + the shader compiler are still standard on win 7. If you target something else, you'll have to use what those platforms define as standard.

It's only in the future where win 7 eventually dies out that there's a big question mark because d3dx is depreciated and the compiler is a huge dll.

http://bp.untergrund.net/2008/compos_pc.php

exactly. so for now its win7 with the stuff that comes with it, if you have win8 then try emulate that setup. and in a few years when win7 dies out we'll come back to this topic.
and by then everyone will be focusing on the "tiny shadertoy shader" compo so nobody'll give a shit :)

gargaj: vista was a flop with huge performance and compatibility issues, if things would be a fair bit different if not. And now most people are using 7.. which is pretty much vista, but fixed.

Smash: Yep. It's only if people want to use new win8 features / new shader models that we hit this issue now. (And still nobody has answered - are there any benefits to using win 8 for demos?)

psonice: if you would've spent the energy of posting here on coding instead, you wouldve finished your first 4k by now.

"And still nobody has answered - are there any benefits to using win 8 for demos?"

You may have to wait until Revision or Assembly 4k compo to get your answers.. ;)

Probably some new default shipping songs you can hijack, if nothing else.

I like Glooms comment ;)

Was this the topic? Well shit. I suppose we're all lost now.

Back to the compo-level discussion: Whether a 4k leaning on hundreds of megs worth of cheat sheets can compete with another flying blind is for the organizers to decide. It's up to the audience to give it merit.

psonice: Probably new media fils to use for music. ;)

Shifter: Invalid point. There are three key things in D3DX worth considering: shader compiler, matrix stack and primitives. OpenGL has them all bundled (primitives are in GLU). It's not a question of fairness, as the ground is already quite level. It's a question whether to cripple DirectX to the point any DX 4k is crap, or not to do it.

To sum it up: no OpenGL 4k intro flies blind, because all key things are there. But DirectX without compiler at least will make a really blind flight (to the point nobody will do it anymore).

So there is no real benefit of using D3DX then in the first place? ;)

gargaj: if only i could justify the time at the moment :( I can post on here while i'm waiting for stuff to build or test though, or while i clear my mind for a few minutes.

And intros are something i care about, so I'd like 2 things to happen: 1. tons of awesome 4Ks. 2. ability to send a 4k exe to people again, and have it run (without needing a ton of extra stuff, and without virus alerts). Not too much to ask is it? :D

Shifter: If there's a ton of awesome new shit in win 8 (new shader model, duck.3ds and a selection of tunes to pillage) people will want to abuse it, and some guidelines would be helpful now. If not, people can build for win7/xp, it doesn't really matter does it?

Hopefully rale will give us a good answer next year :)