pouët.net

Hey guys,
Almost two weeks ago I released TinyFM8, the initial "new prod" effect has faded away, and I'm really interested in couple of things before it really sinks into the history:
1. Adding more samples to the package
2. Getting feedbacks beyond "nice sound"

Thanks for helping!

You're really asking for other people to send you samples, right?


What kind of feedback are you looking for?

Totally!
I don't think people have actually used it apart from doubling clicking the sample, I wish to have feedback from someone who have actually tried it.

Problem is probably that the amount of people who actually own the plugin that is required to run TinyFM8 is rather low. Write a GUI for the plugin (e.g. using JUCE) and the amount of users will probably go up in no time (since it would essentially be a free FM8 replacement).

that solves half the problem, you would still need to FM8 for it's instruments...

A good demotrack of the new instrument would not hurt either..

I for one have a general interest in music and synth, but I don't have any DAW software to test with.

With a proper GUI you can create your own and share them. :P

JohnD: have you figured out a proper license for your software ? trc_wm / netpouet 's input in the original thread was quite insightful.

can you confirm that you have not used any Native Instruments code in your synth ?

(disassembling it, looking for bugs/defects is legal, at least in my country -- as far as I know (but I am not a lawyer..netpouet is!))

your synth looks quite OK to me and I might even consider coding a UI for it -- but I do not want to get into legal troubles with NI.

(and FFS, do what Gargaj says, remove the download link for the original FM8 in your release notes!)

xyz: unfortunately the safe thing to assume is that someone who has no problem spreading the link to a pirated version of FM8 most likely does not have any issues reusing code he found. I'm not saying he did, just that it's a pretty logical conclusion, if you want to stay on the safe side of things.

This seems a bit harsh. Very very rarely would it make any kind of sense to directly reuse pieces of disassembled code.

Gloom: I remember someone saying: Should I replace "ripper" with "fake" or do you just get the point?

In general I'm moral person, but I'm aware that my morality goes a little flexible when it comes to software piracy.
I have somehow adopted a more flexible "try before you buy" policy, this means that everything professional related is not pirate, however, paying for a tool like FM8 when you are not a musician does not make sense to me.
Still, I understand that I'm somehow not mainstream about that, as so, I will remove pirate links.

xyz: Regarding the license, After looking into the revision video, I have decided to really not reserve and rights and give it under the WTFPL - Yes, I know it's not a proper public license but it does the trick for me.

Regarding the NI code usage, I can assure you that NO NI CODE WAS USED IN WHATS-SO-EVER. Both file format and algorithm reverse engineering done purely on the changing-inputs-comparing-outputs basis. The only time I found myself reading FM8 assembler is to try to understand how the hell FM8 is so effective on the CPU (The answer, BTW, is Intel compiler, which makes the code impossible to understand - for me anyway).

I did use external codes for the compressor and reverb filters, the compressor code comes from musicdsp.com. The reverb filter was done long time ago and I can't find it's source.

Regarding the pirated related: I will follow Gargaj request and remove all references to pirated software. I'm planning to add support the new FM8 demo version file formats, this will make it totally legal. I will also make the .nfo file include the references for compressor and reverb sources.

One last thing, xyz, thanks for leveraging TinyFM8 by making a UI to it, I'll be glad to help any way I can.

Hey JohnD,

I was about to post this:

"
unless you live in the USA, there are no patents for software algorithms so re-implementing a synth from scratch is legal.

using borrowed pieces of code is not (copyright infringement).
"

but you replied faster than me :)

glad to hear that my assumption was correct and that, to quote you


may I suggest that instead of the "WTFPL" you use a proper open source license, e.g. MIT or BSD
(they boil down to "do WTF you want, don't hold me responsible, give me some credit in your docs)

about the UI: let me think about this for a couple of days, I'll contact you then (already got a lot of work to do but I am looking for a decent sounding, tiny open source synth engine!)

JohnD: ah yes -- the ye olde "take things out of context"-internet discussion trick. :) Sorry, but that's from a completely separate discussion involving an entirely different set of circumstances and isn't even remotely comparable to this discussion.

Now, to the point: I like reverse engineering. I like taking stuff apart and figuring out how they are made. I like hacking, and I like making music. That said: they way you're distributing TinyFM8 makes a resonable case for people stopping and asking you if it is entirely legal. In fact, not asking would be pretty daft.

I'm sure xyz appreciates you clearing that up for him (and anyone else interested in checking out your synth). On that last note: since you are complaining about the synth getting too little exposure, you should perhaps yield to the many people telling you to just build an UI for it, because the lack of a proper VSTi-version is why people don't care enough to check it out. :)

gloom: point taken.

Word! I'd be happy to give it a shot when it doesn't require me to install shitloads of other stuff but can simply add it as a VSTi. And I really couldn't care less, if it only comes with two test-presets. It's working with creating presets, that gives you a deeper understanding if the instrument is worth anything to you or not. Not the amount of presets it has out of the box.

JohnD: btw, I just wanted to mention that I saw your mail and I'll get back to you when I'm back home in Oslo :)

Punqtured: true, but having just a few more which demonstrates the capabilities right out of the box might inspire you to actually spend some time doing that work. :) If all commercial synths came with "blank preset 000-255", that'd be a real drag.

Haha - not fair to compair target-ordience of <16k synths with that of commercial synths :D

Punqtured: hehe, perhaps not entirely fair, but we're still talking about musicians here. I'm one of those who use both, and I clearly prefer to have at least _some_ idea of what the synth can do -- be it a huge commercial undertaking like NI Massive, or something entirely different.

Granted, this can partly be achieved with a set of good demo-tunes, but having at least a semi-decent set of shipping patches is a win-win.

I totally agree with gloom, I couple have just implement a simple FM synthesizer, but I have chosen to reverse FM8 sound rendering algorithm just to be able to enjoy the ready made instruments.

The basic idea of requiring a musician to understand how FM synthesis looks in the frequency domain is just too much too ask. Point is that someone have bang his head over this and created the instrument library, i think sample instruments should be used -- at least for reference.

* "...i could have just..."

I respectfully disagree on that point. At least as far as pitching a new <16k synth to demoscene-musicians. I guess most potential testers have a pretty good grasp on the inner workings of FM synthesis, so if you had to list a featureset on a todo-list, I'd definately place a VSTi implementation higher than an elaborate library of presets. But again - can't guarantee everyone else feels that way too. Obviously, it would be nice to have a nice, library of presets, but what you really need to compare is:

1 - Installation Visual Studio. Getting a trial/illegal FM8 synth. Then compile and run the whole thing. Then - enjoy the huge library of presets. Twist and experiment to reate your own presets for future scene-productions, since "factory presets" are just too mainstream to be used anyways.

2 - Copy the vst to your default VST-folder. Fire up your favorite DAW. Listen to the single default preset. Twist and experiment to create your own presets for future scene-productions, since "factory presets" are just too mainstream to be used anyways.

Punqtured: You describe one of my key understanding about the this release of TinyFM8. I think that demoscene-musicians are interested in a clean, standalone and elegant solution. TinyFM8 somehow misses this point but I definitely plan to change it.

My plan is to first wait and see what's xyz have in mind for UI, then decide how to continue - will update on that.

To be fair, all musicians prefer that :)

Choose two.