pouët.net

problem: some people want out of the awards category
answer: take them out, replace them with some other people

it's that easy.

I'm sorry -- what? How on earth did you come to that obscure and inacurate conclusion?

Revival: both of your examples are based upon a jury-decision, which the Public Choice award is not. It is a public poll, one that people nominated themselves to be in. Your first example pretty much already happened (Michelle Bachman using two different songs in her campaign -- even though a license-fee was paid, those two artists still declined her the use of their music). The difference if of course that in this case, there is a public poll -- not a closed decision by a jury. It also differs in that if this faux "Best Patriotic Music"-award was to be given out, the liberal musicians added to the list are more than welcome not to accept it, should they actually win.

I guess a better example would perhaps be the Razzies -- where a group of people nominate and select the worst movies of the year. I'm farily certain that M. Night Shyamalan or the people behind the Twilight Saga would prefer it not to be named "The Worst Movie of the year", but it's really not up to them to define what other people think.

Your second example is so preposterious in this setting that I'm not really going validate it with a response, sorry :)

nosfe: my opinion on this stands, but I don't speak for the entire Scene.org Awards staff, so whatever they decide, I'll stand behind.

Fantastic outreach material we got there.

Let's make sure we include that thread in the "demoscene pamphlet for outsiders", without missing a single bit. No doubt we will get more customers !

what does that have to do with anything?

ha, for once keops said something i can agree with.

gargaj, groups asking people to check out scene awards and vote for their prods could be seen as kind of an outreach since it can be a way to get new people to see demos and get interested in them. apparently scene.org staff thinks this is a bad thing.

nosfe: that's a pretty soapboxy statement to be honest - it's one group asking people SPECIFICALLY to "do us a little favor and vote for our "We Have Accidently Borrowed Your Votedisk" intro in the publics choice category". that's not really encouraging people to check anything else out (or even to watch the aforementioned intro).

gloom: Yes, the examples were only meant to illustrate that there IS a grey area where people should allowed to excuse themselves from this kind of stuff.

gargaj, so shouldn't they be disqualified then and removed from the category?

nosfe: it says "The Scene.org Awards staff reserves the right (but is not obliged) to discount votes"

yeah. and how is this not supposed to look like razor is only kept in so that their votes can be later discounted and they can be presented as a loser at the public choice category?

yes, that's what we're discussing now, but what does outreach has to do with anything apart from a below-the-belt ad-hominem at gloom?

my point is that instead of keeping scene awards public choice as the jerking circle of people already in the scene, it should be advertised more to get new audience for the scene. even the "go vote for our demo" is better than "you keep out of here since you haven't been in the scene for X years"
it's not like oscars is watched only by the people who make movies you know.

especially now, when the awards show will be held at Assembly, which has quite a lot of audience which is not 100% pure demoscene activists, this kind of attitude is ridiculous.
i hope you tell it to the audience at assembly that while they are welcome to view the awards show they should stay the fuck out of voting for productions they like since they are not true sceners enough.

TITS...identify yourself. Photo documentation required.

but that's a very roundabout argument.
1. oscars are jury voted.
2. as blueberry pointed out, the voting turnout (mostly due to the ACTUAL sceners not giving a shit) is horribly low so anyone with a few hundred extra votes can rearrange the ranks any way they like.
3. as said before, asking for votes isn't really advertising for a new audience. if they would've said "don't forget to vote for the scene.org awards" and nothing more, then yes i would agree that it's outreach. but the focus wasn't on the awards or the demos involved, it was on one specific intro.
4. yes, "go vote for our demo" is BETTER, but i'd argue it's still NOT GOOD ENOUGH as far as getting people interested goes.

Nosfe: no we don't, you read what you wanted to read in my post.



Gargaj: nothing indeed, I just wanted to be part of that fantastic thread that beats even TV comedy. That's why it's great outreach material, at last!

I'm sure you're not the one I need to explain my point of view on fake accounts, botnets increasing artificially the popularity of prods or "warez customers" registering en mass on a website to vote for their favorite warez supplier, most of them without having watched any other prod in the list ;)

spot on.

well ok, go fuck yourself then.

nosfe:

its not about non-sceners at parties like ASM or TG not beeing allowed to vote there.
at least at ASM from what i've seen so far the non-sceners do have quite some respect for demoscene stuff but most of all are present at the party and can watch the compos and therefore judge for themselves, so they of course have a right to vote for whatever they liked best there.

if those people get interested into demoscene stuff and create accounts on pouet, follow the scene a bit and then want to vote for "public choice" at some point thats exactly what the outreach is aiming for.

but this is a totally different thing than acquiring random votes from people on the internet via sites like facebook because there you mostly address people who have absolutely no connection to the scene and didnt see/know all the entries which are candidates and therefore simply biasing the results.

I think some people are forgetting it's a competition and not an outreach project. Why would you not promote your own work if it's been nominated in a competition?

4mat: Because it is understood that the result should reflect which production from the last year was "best", not which demoscener has the most friends on the interwebs. That's a totally different competition.

No that's completely wrong. Best is a) subjective and b) judged by a fixed jury. It's PUBLIC CHOICE, and it's not up to scene.org to decide what that public should be. Hell I'd say people who can be arsed to vote for a scene.org award are close enough to begin with.

And what 4mat said.

There is so much to reply to but I am really short of time, but I felt this needed to be said:

You are really overjudging the "warezfans". They are a big majority of our social network outreach, yes, but they are also only there for the free software, these are the people who DEMAND us to FIX our release because their computer dont recon rar files, the avarage is about 15 years old and from an eastern europe or middle east country and hardly speak english (ty facebook stats). They would never make the effort to go through the process of registering for a sceneID to vote for us in something they dont even understand what it is, their general response to us posting our intros is like "fuck this ugly shit it sux go hack Doom 5 now loosers RLD rulez LOL".

Those of our social network public who would go through the sceneID process though, are all the old poofs and ex demosceners who are in to demos but not pouet.net scene drama and dont belong to your little click of people drinking beer on slengpung (at least not since The Party94). and it seems like razor has managed to keep in touch with these people through social networking contrary to most other groups. Blame namevoting, reputation, whatever.

Still, I doubt it would make a difference since we have 2 prods nominated and all those "cheating extra votes" from us divided on two prods cant make the difference from the real very decent democoder friends of gloom and melwyn who make demoscene outreach happens and is not a shame to anyone outside the scene...

So, I publicly announce that I will now create a fake scene ID and vote for our prod so it gets disqualified. Like that this discussion is over and we can go back on working on our next prod.

^^ What he said. Props Dub.