The state of the demoscene: 1991 - 2011
category: general [glöplog]
"Maybe a new portal has no chance without closing down pouet first ;)"
Very funny.
Very funny.
I mean it. Look at all the other scene portals. Almost no action there, even if it's the better platform. People stick to what they know.
People visit them, there's not much happening, they come back to pouet. It's a tough one, you need a certain user base for the site to start taking off.
I think displayhack should do well once it's more community based (better forums etc) and there's more content being added again.
I think displayhack should do well once it's more community based (better forums etc) and there's more content being added again.
Quote:
Oh, that's not intended to be a Pouet replacement, far from it. Nor is it meant to be Demozoo or any sort of archive. No, Displayhack has a far different aspirations, some of which have already been achieved, and some are yet to come :)I think displayhack goes into the right direction but there's no community (yet) filling it regularly with interesting articles.
That said, Pouet is Pouet and will always be Pouet. If Demozoo is to "challenge the dominance", it should be done fair and square and with both participants running at the same time. The audience picks their favourites, always. :) Also, I think it would be a massive mistake not to have forums or discussions in a "Pouet replacement" -- then you're left with just "dead data", a dictionary, a repository. You don't frequent a dictionary to interact with people -- you frequent it to look things up. That's not a community, that's a database. The reason Pouet has been so successful is its blending of those two aspects, and anyone interested in de-throning Pouet ought to keep that in mind.
I never implied that displayhack is a pouet replacement. I merely stated that it's a good step into the whole "recruiting people" direction.
As for the rest, you're absolutely right.
As for the rest, you're absolutely right.
haha, look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZO1RVPmLjY&feature=related. Notice the stars move left and the mountains move right. The latter indicating that there's a camera and it is moving left. But then you wonder: surely the stars should appear to move right too, since stars are even farther away than mountains usually are?
The 14 year old who coded that intro would have looked at you thinking "fucking grown-up", and continued coding on his next intro.
I always loved how copperbars appeared out of nowhere and starfields moved in all possible directions just because the coder thought it might look cool.
The 14 year old who coded that intro would have looked at you thinking "fucking grown-up", and continued coding on his next intro.
I always loved how copperbars appeared out of nowhere and starfields moved in all possible directions just because the coder thought it might look cool.
yes, that was the best possible answer I could cough up to the question "why is the scene today a rotting corpse?" !
Quote:
..and there you have it :)I always loved how copperbars appeared out of nowhere and starfields moved in all possible directions just because the coder thought it might look cool.
hehe... +1 for hyde
my first bbstro had a starfield that went in many directions, BECAUSE I COULD! :)
my first bbstro had a starfield that went in many directions, BECAUSE I COULD! :)
Quote:
...and there you have it :)
@gloom: hmm... you seems to happilly agree to what Hyde said but I am not very sure it's really what you think...
In my intros you always write a dead-sad "Meh." as comment that make me NOT want to make another one short and fun intro :|
And of course I am 100% with Hyde because I'm entering in the "case studies" he explained.
rez: i think what he was saying was that demos with that kind of attitude are the reason why the scene is shrinking. Whether the demo is fun or not, stuff like this only really appeals to demosceners - and if we keep making stuff like that we don't get outside interest and we don't get new demosceners. If everyone made demos like yours the scene would slowly shrink away to nothing.
That doesn't mean it's "a bad demo", or that you should stop making them. In fact I guess stuff like yours might inspire people who are into demos but not active to try and make something. But we need more than just this if the scene is to grow again - we need something that appeals to all the people out there doing cool stuff.
That doesn't mean it's "a bad demo", or that you should stop making them. In fact I guess stuff like yours might inspire people who are into demos but not active to try and make something. But we need more than just this if the scene is to grow again - we need something that appeals to all the people out there doing cool stuff.
also i like to point out that the demozoo is indeed more of a wikipedia for demos and doesnt want to be a pouet replacement.
Ha thank you psonice, I understand better now, in fact I understood the complete opposite :|
So, if I understand everything clearly, I am one of the cause why the demoscene is actually "rotting" because I am still showing glenz-vectors in 2011 :D
So, if I understand everything clearly, I am one of the cause why the demoscene is actually "rotting" because I am still showing glenz-vectors in 2011 :D
Quote:
Quote:PERCENTAGE OF PEPOLE USING COMPUTERS FOR CREATIVE THINGS IS DECREASING RAPIDLY.
I'm sorry, but that's rubbish. :) Or, it depends on how you define both "creative things" and "computers", and if you insist on using "percentages" as a method of measuring. CLEARLY, there are way more people doing creative things with computers (and computer-like devices, like tablets, mobile phones, Arduino-kits etc.) now than in 1990. Of that there can be no question at all. The problem is: how to encourage people to make the leap from being a slightly passive person to take an active role?
I agree with you disagreeing with me. Can't really remember what the hell was I trying to say. Maybe that there used to be a small pond with 5 ducks who did nothing and 5 ducks who did and now there is an ocean with billion ducks and quarter billion of them are doing something.
And now there are also sharks eating those ducks, but overpoplation needs to be controlled.
Poor little ducks.
rez, your glenzvectors just inspired a .jp guy with no previous relation to the demoscene to make a demo.
but I think what these ppl are just bitter that they cant inspire spike jonze to make a demo, mark zuckenberg to write DEMOSCENE FKN RULEZ OLDSCHOOL ELITE YEAH over the facebook logo and the google dongle to transform into byterapers hyperventilation.
but I think what these ppl are just bitter that they cant inspire spike jonze to make a demo, mark zuckenberg to write DEMOSCENE FKN RULEZ OLDSCHOOL ELITE YEAH over the facebook logo and the google dongle to transform into byterapers hyperventilation.
Perhaps I should state at this point that challenging Pouet or poaching its community isn't on our agenda for Demozoo :-) Right now our focus is firmly on getting information recorded that isn't currently online, or is spread across too many different places, and making that accessible to newcomers, existing sceners, whoever's interested. A lot of the detail we're covering (group members, prod credits, music and graphics...) is out of scope for Pouet, and as far as I'm aware, is likely to remain that way.
Demozoo might well have a forum of some kind, but it's not something we've really discussed up to now - we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. If a community forms around what we're doing then that's great, but personally I don't feel the need to chase it as a goal, or second-guess whether that community would be a 'new' Pouet, something that coexists alongside Pouet, or whatever else.
(also, the camera is on a circular path centred on a point just behind the mountains. There, I solved the problem, the demoscene is safe again now.)
Demozoo might well have a forum of some kind, but it's not something we've really discussed up to now - we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. If a community forms around what we're doing then that's great, but personally I don't feel the need to chase it as a goal, or second-guess whether that community would be a 'new' Pouet, something that coexists alongside Pouet, or whatever else.
(also, the camera is on a circular path centred on a point just behind the mountains. There, I solved the problem, the demoscene is safe again now.)
...says the guy who put a fractal on your fractal so you can trip while you trip.
Rez: That's the one :D There's zero harm in what you're doing, and as I said it might get people involved (dubmood seems to be confirming just that).
It's simply that these older styles won't appeal much to the younger generation. They didn't grow up with copperbars and glenz vectors, they grew up with quake 3.
Gasman: the *real* demo zoo is the pouet bbs ;)
It's simply that these older styles won't appeal much to the younger generation. They didn't grow up with copperbars and glenz vectors, they grew up with quake 3.
Gasman: the *real* demo zoo is the pouet bbs ;)
Might just as well write something in here.
As an organizer at the Gathering we deal mostly with what people in here would call "non-sceners". Our goal is to attract people into a general creative environment at TG, which we hope that ultimately results in more people wanting to do demos.
In other words, our target audience is those that you discuss how to get interested in the scene, and our mission is recruitment.
A few highlights of what we've done follows:
# Rebranding/naming
In 2009 we rebranded from "demo" to "creativia". We did this to be more approachable, and because there are a lot of compos that are not demo compos (graphics, music, general programming).
# Compo suite
We've switched up the compos somewhat to try to attract new people towards doing something creative while at the Gathering.
We've subtracted compos that didn't work and added new ones over the last three years. A few of the new additions that seem to stick are:
- ms paint (which ironically is a lot like oldskool pixelling)
- hardcore programming (really ai programming, but the point is that it's a programming compo that's not about gfx programming)
- small HTML (size coding)
# Creating an environment for creative people
We believe that the most important part of what we do is to establish a creative environment at the Gathering. People are social, and like to do what the people around them do. So if the guy or girl (yes we have a lot of them) does something creative you are likely to be inspired to do something yourself. If you sit alone working on something then it's probably a lot more tempting to join them for a few rounds of gaming.
So we (re-)established a creative area. It's reserved for Creative Ticket holders (we screen every application), has it's own little stage for seminars and compo showings (for the smaller compos), an info desk for our activities and mentors on standby for people needing help with coding, graphics or music production.
In addition to this we also try to organize social events either inside (free pizza after the compos on Saturday while waiting for the prize ceremony) or outside (anything including alcohol) the party place.
# Motivating the newbies
We host seminars aimed at novices and intermediates, in all disciplines needed to make a demo.
In addition to the compo prizes we do special awards each year. Best newcomer, first demo challenge, hidden gem (for cool stuff that doesn't do well in compos). They get to come on stage during the prize ceremony, and also get fairly nice prizes (cash, stuff that's actually usable).
We hope that recognition also signals some form of acceptance.
# Yields
- Most people participating in the individual compos are people we never heard about until they participated in a compo
- We got some new people trying to do demos each year. Not all of them try to do something next year, but still.
- Sales of creative tickets went from ~80 in 2009 to ~140 in 2010 to ~200 in 2011. Sales for 2012 are looking good so far.
- We've attracted new people that show up at other parties (Solskogen in Norway gets most of the benefit). It's not a gold rush, but it is new people.
# My personal thoughts
If you want to recruit new people you have actively reach out to them, where they are. TG and Assembly seem to be the obvious targets.
Reaching out means to do more than just host a party for sceners and allowing newbies to be there. They need encouragement to do something, help to do it and a pat on the back when they do it. Sitting isolated in a party hall where nobody gives a fuck about you, only to end up dead last in a compo because you can't compete neither on skill, inside humor or name isn't fun.
At TG we do this because we have to. If there's to be any hope of real growth more people and parties will have to start reaching out because they want to.
As an organizer at the Gathering we deal mostly with what people in here would call "non-sceners". Our goal is to attract people into a general creative environment at TG, which we hope that ultimately results in more people wanting to do demos.
In other words, our target audience is those that you discuss how to get interested in the scene, and our mission is recruitment.
A few highlights of what we've done follows:
# Rebranding/naming
In 2009 we rebranded from "demo" to "creativia". We did this to be more approachable, and because there are a lot of compos that are not demo compos (graphics, music, general programming).
# Compo suite
We've switched up the compos somewhat to try to attract new people towards doing something creative while at the Gathering.
We've subtracted compos that didn't work and added new ones over the last three years. A few of the new additions that seem to stick are:
- ms paint (which ironically is a lot like oldskool pixelling)
- hardcore programming (really ai programming, but the point is that it's a programming compo that's not about gfx programming)
- small HTML (size coding)
# Creating an environment for creative people
We believe that the most important part of what we do is to establish a creative environment at the Gathering. People are social, and like to do what the people around them do. So if the guy or girl (yes we have a lot of them) does something creative you are likely to be inspired to do something yourself. If you sit alone working on something then it's probably a lot more tempting to join them for a few rounds of gaming.
So we (re-)established a creative area. It's reserved for Creative Ticket holders (we screen every application), has it's own little stage for seminars and compo showings (for the smaller compos), an info desk for our activities and mentors on standby for people needing help with coding, graphics or music production.
In addition to this we also try to organize social events either inside (free pizza after the compos on Saturday while waiting for the prize ceremony) or outside (anything including alcohol) the party place.
# Motivating the newbies
We host seminars aimed at novices and intermediates, in all disciplines needed to make a demo.
In addition to the compo prizes we do special awards each year. Best newcomer, first demo challenge, hidden gem (for cool stuff that doesn't do well in compos). They get to come on stage during the prize ceremony, and also get fairly nice prizes (cash, stuff that's actually usable).
We hope that recognition also signals some form of acceptance.
# Yields
- Most people participating in the individual compos are people we never heard about until they participated in a compo
- We got some new people trying to do demos each year. Not all of them try to do something next year, but still.
- Sales of creative tickets went from ~80 in 2009 to ~140 in 2010 to ~200 in 2011. Sales for 2012 are looking good so far.
- We've attracted new people that show up at other parties (Solskogen in Norway gets most of the benefit). It's not a gold rush, but it is new people.
# My personal thoughts
If you want to recruit new people you have actively reach out to them, where they are. TG and Assembly seem to be the obvious targets.
Reaching out means to do more than just host a party for sceners and allowing newbies to be there. They need encouragement to do something, help to do it and a pat on the back when they do it. Sitting isolated in a party hall where nobody gives a fuck about you, only to end up dead last in a compo because you can't compete neither on skill, inside humor or name isn't fun.
At TG we do this because we have to. If there's to be any hope of real growth more people and parties will have to start reaching out because they want to.
lug00ber has leading.
see you at revision ;)
see you at revision ;)
lug00ber = 
also, something else I was thinking of. In other creative communities (games, modding, graphics, font work, etc) there's almost always a wip section, where people proudly show and share ideas. It's encouraging for the one who posts and inspiring for those around.
But here, it's much less frequent. Sometimes we've got a "here's how I did it" like smash's blog, displayhack or some diskmag articles.
Now I don't know how this can/could cohabit with the competition factor. You just can't show your secret weapon before you use it. But it would inspire [new] people and show more activity than, say, pictures of kittens :)
also, something else I was thinking of. In other creative communities (games, modding, graphics, font work, etc) there's almost always a wip section, where people proudly show and share ideas. It's encouraging for the one who posts and inspiring for those around.
But here, it's much less frequent. Sometimes we've got a "here's how I did it" like smash's blog, displayhack or some diskmag articles.
Now I don't know how this can/could cohabit with the competition factor. You just can't show your secret weapon before you use it. But it would inspire [new] people and show more activity than, say, pictures of kittens :)
Whoa. Whoa. The times we're living. This kind of outreach thoughts are so far from the hostile times of the early nineties, when you were treated as unwanted lamer scum before you could prove yourself. Wouldn't say I miss everything from those days.
i think the scene is lacking coders because coding demos isn't as fun as gaming. back when i started coding - i did it because the games were boring and ugly. today if some youngster REALLY wants to code - he'll do web-backend stuff for hire.
i think the scene is lacking graphicians/designers because making graphics for demos isn't the only outlet you have today - anyone can post to devianart or any community based gloryhole
i think the scene is lacking musicians (well is it??) because making music for demos isn't the only outlet you have today - anyone can post to youtube/bandcamp/whatever and become famous.
this is my very subjective truth. yours may differ, but this is mine.
i think the scene is lacking graphicians/designers because making graphics for demos isn't the only outlet you have today - anyone can post to devianart or any community based gloryhole
i think the scene is lacking musicians (well is it??) because making music for demos isn't the only outlet you have today - anyone can post to youtube/bandcamp/whatever and become famous.
this is my very subjective truth. yours may differ, but this is mine.
Quote:
i think the scene is lacking coders because coding demos isn't as fun as gaming.
I started preferring coding over gaming at age 16 or so.
so, skrebbel, which group do you belong to:
A) young people who might get interested in demo making
B) old dirty bastards
A) young people who might get interested in demo making
B) old dirty bastards