Preparing an Oldschool PC Demoshow - suggestions wanted!
category: offtopic [glöplog]
Helloes!
### If you are thinking TL;DR right about now, skip down to the second part ###
First some background:
As you probably know I have been in the scene for quite a while now, and I visit a shitload of demoparties every year. At the center of the scene are obviously its productions, both recent and past. In recent years, I have noticed a trend away from real hardware, both at parties and when watching demos at home. More and more, people watch demos either as videos, be it on Youtube or as higher quality captures, or using emulators for oldschool hardware. This is understandable, as one cannot own all the increasingly varied hardware required to run those productions on their native hardware. The same thing is happening at parties, where entire demoshows are run as video playlists, no matter if new or old. Understandable, as it greatly reduces the effort required by the organizers, which are usually overworked as it is, but also a shame. Not only do many demos suffer badly from video encoding, or run incorrectly when using an emulator, but it also sort of contradicts the whole realtime point. And that is what demos are about after all. I do not want to start a big discussion here, I am happy to discuss my feelings about this over a beer at the next party, but since this is our scene after all I feel that I wish to do something about it.
The platform that all of this is especially true for IMHO is the MS-DOS PC. While Amiga and Atari get all the love from their loyal followers, oldschool PC hardware and many of the productions made for it is all but forgotten. The demos, if ever watched at all, are watched either as video or on DosBox or similar. Don't get me wrong, DosBox is an amazing project. But there is just something to be said about watching a PC demo on its original hardware, with the nearly two decades old CPU (who feels old right now? :) screaming in pain and the GUS working its magic.
### Continue reading here ###
So, I have scavenged some old hardware, built the best PC one could have wanted back in the day, fired up MS-DOS 6.22 and decided to put together a demoshow. I will hopefully show it at some party soon, and if it is a success possibly make it a semi-regular thing. What I need from you are suggestions. There are a gazillion DOS demos, and lets be honest, most have aged badly and no one really wants to see them ever again. So please help me sort through the masses. Suggest demos that you would like to see again, running on real hardware, on the big screen, at a party near you.
Rules:
The hardware for this is as follows:
Pentium MMX 233Mhz, will be clocked down if necessary (for demos with the "Runtime error 200" Pascal compiler bug, or demos that run too fast)
96mb RAM
Matrox Mystique (Other cards available if needed)
3dfx Voodoo 2 (for Glide support)
Synergy ViperMax aka. Gravis Ultrasound Extreme (Gravis GF1 and ESS1688 chipsets, hardware compatible with GUS and SB Pro)
Older 386 and 486 hardware is available if needed, PC XT can be arranged too if someone actually knows any good demos that old.
Software:
MS-DOS 6.22
UniVBE if needed
Various DOS extenders and memory managers
Windows 3.11
I will install whatever is necessary. I have yet to find a demo that doesn't run on this machine after a little coercing.
When suggesting a demo please include the following as far as known:
[list]
Name of production and release group or person
Year of release and party it was released at (especially if not on Pouet)
Pouet link or download link if the demo is not on Pouet
Special requirements (OS, hardware, software)
If you want to, an explanation why you are suggesting this production and/or what its historical significance is.
Well-known classics are welcome just as much as obscure hidden gems. However, hidden gems are especially welcome, as most of the better known demos are obviously already known to me, and I am trying to discover more obscure ones.
### If you are thinking TL;DR right about now, skip down to the second part ###
First some background:
As you probably know I have been in the scene for quite a while now, and I visit a shitload of demoparties every year. At the center of the scene are obviously its productions, both recent and past. In recent years, I have noticed a trend away from real hardware, both at parties and when watching demos at home. More and more, people watch demos either as videos, be it on Youtube or as higher quality captures, or using emulators for oldschool hardware. This is understandable, as one cannot own all the increasingly varied hardware required to run those productions on their native hardware. The same thing is happening at parties, where entire demoshows are run as video playlists, no matter if new or old. Understandable, as it greatly reduces the effort required by the organizers, which are usually overworked as it is, but also a shame. Not only do many demos suffer badly from video encoding, or run incorrectly when using an emulator, but it also sort of contradicts the whole realtime point. And that is what demos are about after all. I do not want to start a big discussion here, I am happy to discuss my feelings about this over a beer at the next party, but since this is our scene after all I feel that I wish to do something about it.
The platform that all of this is especially true for IMHO is the MS-DOS PC. While Amiga and Atari get all the love from their loyal followers, oldschool PC hardware and many of the productions made for it is all but forgotten. The demos, if ever watched at all, are watched either as video or on DosBox or similar. Don't get me wrong, DosBox is an amazing project. But there is just something to be said about watching a PC demo on its original hardware, with the nearly two decades old CPU (who feels old right now? :) screaming in pain and the GUS working its magic.
### Continue reading here ###
So, I have scavenged some old hardware, built the best PC one could have wanted back in the day, fired up MS-DOS 6.22 and decided to put together a demoshow. I will hopefully show it at some party soon, and if it is a success possibly make it a semi-regular thing. What I need from you are suggestions. There are a gazillion DOS demos, and lets be honest, most have aged badly and no one really wants to see them ever again. So please help me sort through the masses. Suggest demos that you would like to see again, running on real hardware, on the big screen, at a party near you.
Rules:
- No ports: No ports from other platforms please. Only productions that have been originally released for DOS or Windows 3.11. Early Windows 95 productions are ok too.
- No boredom: Intros of the "logo and sinescroller" variety are rarely interesting nowadays. One or two of the really best ones might get in, but in general, please stick to "real" demos. Also, pure techdemos that are not aesthetically interesting or 25 minute megademos with 17 variations of plasmas and bouncing balls are rarely that interesting. The same goes for pure fun-releases and inside jokes.
- No modern releases: A lot of 256b and other tiny-intro productions in recent years are technically DOS productions, but are not made for nor require this old hardware. There is really no point in watching Pulse at 1-frame-every-10-seconds on a 20 year old machine. If however someone made a real DOS demo for an old PC in recent years, that is welcome!
- No videoplayers: There are a ton of "demos" that really are videoplayers, often in textmode. Not interesting.
- 4k and up: There are exceptions to this rule, but in general, most sub-4k releases of the time haven't ages too well and are not all that interesting to watch.
- And most importantly No ISO, the world was not ready for ISO then and is not ready for it now. :)
The hardware for this is as follows:
Pentium MMX 233Mhz, will be clocked down if necessary (for demos with the "Runtime error 200" Pascal compiler bug, or demos that run too fast)
96mb RAM
Matrox Mystique (Other cards available if needed)
3dfx Voodoo 2 (for Glide support)
Synergy ViperMax aka. Gravis Ultrasound Extreme (Gravis GF1 and ESS1688 chipsets, hardware compatible with GUS and SB Pro)
Older 386 and 486 hardware is available if needed, PC XT can be arranged too if someone actually knows any good demos that old.
Software:
MS-DOS 6.22
UniVBE if needed
Various DOS extenders and memory managers
Windows 3.11
I will install whatever is necessary. I have yet to find a demo that doesn't run on this machine after a little coercing.
When suggesting a demo please include the following as far as known:
[list]
Well-known classics are welcome just as much as obscure hidden gems. However, hidden gems are especially welcome, as most of the better known demos are obviously already known to me, and I am trying to discover more obscure ones.
Fantastic idea Topy44!!
Off the top of my head I can suggest this one:
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=74
but surely there are many many more to consider .. :)
Off the top of my head I can suggest this one:
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=74
but surely there are many many more to consider .. :)
anything by Shock!, AstroideA, Exhumers, Euthanasia
Well, i can only wish you good luck on finding stuff yourself. :D
...since many demos are very picky about hardware settings.
If you want to show a full list of like 30 demos or so, you might either end up with 5 different machines or at least long pauses because of HW changes. :D
Demos like Second Reality or Unreal might run way too fast on your machine while Inside will be okay but g-cube from 99 states it requires a P2 for smooth playback. (Back then i was really curious about this)
Your top notch DOS machine should be really a fast P2 or something with 64MB ram or 128 at most. For all the old shit you should prepare a old 486SX or something.....
...since many demos are very picky about hardware settings.
If you want to show a full list of like 30 demos or so, you might either end up with 5 different machines or at least long pauses because of HW changes. :D
Demos like Second Reality or Unreal might run way too fast on your machine while Inside will be okay but g-cube from 99 states it requires a P2 for smooth playback. (Back then i was really curious about this)
Your top notch DOS machine should be really a fast P2 or something with 64MB ram or 128 at most. For all the old shit you should prepare a old 486SX or something.....
Gargaj (and all), I would ask you to make more specific requests. Go through the list, pick your favourites, list those.
Pouet is full of good demos, and it is hard to make a fair choice. One of the reasons for my call for suggestions is not only to find good demos, but to decide which ones people want to see most.
BTW Gargaj, could you edit my post and add the missing [/link] near the end? :)
Pouet is full of good demos, and it is hard to make a fair choice. One of the reasons for my call for suggestions is not only to find good demos, but to decide which ones people want to see most.
BTW Gargaj, could you edit my post and add the missing [/link] near the end? :)
Also, since at least one of your machines has a PCI bus, or even onboard USB, be sure to install a few utils on that machine for reading usb sticks.
TRUST ME, you're going to test ALOT of demos if you really wanna show something. And constant CD writing is NOT very nice over the time. :D
TRUST ME, you're going to test ALOT of demos if you really wanna show something. And constant CD writing is NOT very nice over the time. :D
Exin, I am specifically looking at the mid-90s era mostly, though but if it becomes necessary faster machines are available too.
Both Second Reality and Unreal run perfectly and at correct speed on my machine, and I have picked most components to be as compatible as possible. Suggestions for "picky" demos are welcome too, I welcome a challenge. :) And those are the most interesting to see as most people probably have never seen them running on real HW.
Also, I have my methods for quick changes to the hardware. Lets just say: You can do a lot with a bunch of switches and a soldering iron. :)
Both Second Reality and Unreal run perfectly and at correct speed on my machine, and I have picked most components to be as compatible as possible. Suggestions for "picky" demos are welcome too, I welcome a challenge. :) And those are the most interesting to see as most people probably have never seen them running on real HW.
Also, I have my methods for quick changes to the hardware. Lets just say: You can do a lot with a bunch of switches and a soldering iron. :)
As for newer DOS demos, i can recommend most stuff that came out on Mekka and Assembly before 2000. Just browse through the top lists. I can also recommend most stuff that came out on the Party 98 and before.
A mekka list:
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=482
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=1285
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=1604
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=53686
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=1498
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=313
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=466
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=32365
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=240
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=375
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=1100
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=20540
Prepare for some cheesy flashbacks....Stuff from Assembly (And early TP stuff too)was usually much better, but you wanted a list. And making lists is WORK! And who likes to work? Nobody! ;-)
A mekka list:
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=482
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=1285
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=1604
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=53686
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=1498
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=313
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=466
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=32365
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=240
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=375
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=1100
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=20540
Prepare for some cheesy flashbacks....Stuff from Assembly (And early TP stuff too)was usually much better, but you wanted a list. And making lists is WORK! And who likes to work? Nobody! ;-)
I am the one having to deal with IRQs and memory managers and VESA modes, getting to work all that stuff, so come on... :)
Everybody: Please ALLWAYS add at least the name and group to every suggestion! Otherwise It will be really annoying keeping track of double suggestions and such. Its just a few seconds of typing for you and makes my job much easier.
Also, there is no need just essentially copypasting top lists. I can do that much myself. I want personal suggestions. :)
Everybody: Please ALLWAYS add at least the name and group to every suggestion! Otherwise It will be really annoying keeping track of double suggestions and such. Its just a few seconds of typing for you and makes my job much easier.
Also, there is no need just essentially copypasting top lists. I can do that much myself. I want personal suggestions. :)
Ok, a few suggestions (and favorites) from me:
Hornet & Otm - Explicit
Pulse - Reve
Beyond - Arise
Complex - Dope
Hornet & Otm - Explicit
Pulse - Reve
Beyond - Arise
Complex - Dope
I hate you. :)
Short list for Danish parties TP and SE in mid 90s:
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=782
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=1303
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=935
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=446
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=932
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=934
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=3153
I could surely add more - eg some of my own :-)
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=782
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=1303
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=935
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=446
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=932
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=934
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=3153
I could surely add more - eg some of my own :-)
some more
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=564
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=947
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=1302
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=1271
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=1301
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=564
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=947
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=1302
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=1271
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=1301
even more
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=5054
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=3597 (well, not really :)
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=30889
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=16798 (well, not really :)
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=5553
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=5054
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=3597 (well, not really :)
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=30889
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=16798 (well, not really :)
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=5553
there - that's 10 min of personal pouet list from me to you!
also this one - http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=942
Here are some of my old favorites. Some of these are a bit more obscure, but seriously, who wants to see Second Reality ever again?
Babylon by Psychic Monks because it's strange, different and the music still gives me the chills.
Water by Spirit New Style because it just is awesome.
Chopsticks by Omicron because it's a good intro and completely overlooked.
Daze by Urinate because it kicks ass.
Robotnik by Rage because it still beats most of the industrial demos.
Time zone + 13:00 by Eufrosyne because it's probably the best "floating ambient particles" thing that's ever been done.
Toasted by Cubic Team & $een because when I saw the rollercoaster at ASM'96, it was so awesome it almost made me cry.
Also, anything by Xtacy, Blasphemy and Orange.
Babylon by Psychic Monks because it's strange, different and the music still gives me the chills.
Water by Spirit New Style because it just is awesome.
Chopsticks by Omicron because it's a good intro and completely overlooked.
Daze by Urinate because it kicks ass.
Robotnik by Rage because it still beats most of the industrial demos.
Time zone + 13:00 by Eufrosyne because it's probably the best "floating ambient particles" thing that's ever been done.
Toasted by Cubic Team & $een because when I saw the rollercoaster at ASM'96, it was so awesome it almost made me cry.
Also, anything by Xtacy, Blasphemy and Orange.
everything by kolor.
and funk!.
Woah, getting out of hand.
PLEASE ALWAYS INCLUDE AT LEAST THE NAME OF THE PRODUCTION AND A LINK!
Not just a link. Not just a name. Please.
PLEASE ALWAYS INCLUDE AT LEAST THE NAME OF THE PRODUCTION AND A LINK!
Not just a link. Not just a name. Please.
dive! by neutron
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=2255
h0tlink: ftp://ftp.scene.org/pub/parties/1996/scenest96/demo/dive.zip
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=2255
h0tlink: ftp://ftp.scene.org/pub/parties/1996/scenest96/demo/dive.zip
