ROME
category: offtopic [glöplog]
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Competition rules however limit the type of technology one can use. (interaction, networking, distributed computing are not accepted afaik)
But then, nothing forces you to release at parties. And even if you want to, you can release in Wild.
I have first-hand experience of not being able to release my demos in competition, even in wild, and having to release them directly yes. That doesn't make the situation entirely fun.
It's actually the main reason I've not been to breakpoint in the latter years, it's not a welcoming environment.
It's actually the main reason I've not been to breakpoint in the latter years, it's not a welcoming environment.
knos: Hopefully, such things as the JS1k and the Mozilla Labs DemoParty-initiative can help.
Somehow, all I'm reading in this thread is "the demoscene police does not want things that are demoscene-like but not purely demoscene-made, also I'm a little girl"
knos: don't confuse "breakpoint" with "demoparties"
I think most people would welcome more releases outside demo parties, c64 scene never stopped doing that.
Also commercial, also a web based music video: http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=6959
Thing is, a 'demo' is so loosely defined that half the stuff out there on the web could be in the pouet DB. I mean, if there's a non-interactive game demo that shows off the engine with some music playing, how is that different from the average party release? Chances are there are sceners involved too. More or less every example file for opengl/dx, all of the chrome experiments, do they belong here?
All that sets us apart from those things is our own quirky compo rules and our history. Either we use those to determine what is/isn't part of the scene, or the scene dissolves into the wider world out there.
Personally I think more mixing with other scenes would be a good thing, so long as it's not excessive. So as far as I'm concerned, make an exception and let stuff like rome in, so long as there's some scene connection.
(And where the hell is that other melon flash animation, with the french tune and all the tits? That ruled!)
Thing is, a 'demo' is so loosely defined that half the stuff out there on the web could be in the pouet DB. I mean, if there's a non-interactive game demo that shows off the engine with some music playing, how is that different from the average party release? Chances are there are sceners involved too. More or less every example file for opengl/dx, all of the chrome experiments, do they belong here?
All that sets us apart from those things is our own quirky compo rules and our history. Either we use those to determine what is/isn't part of the scene, or the scene dissolves into the wider world out there.
Personally I think more mixing with other scenes would be a good thing, so long as it's not excessive. So as far as I'm concerned, make an exception and let stuff like rome in, so long as there's some scene connection.
(And where the hell is that other melon flash animation, with the french tune and all the tits? That ruled!)
Of course I know that breakpoint-type aren't the only demoparties there is.
That's the reason why I went to (and preferred) smaller events since.
The fact is however that a lot of smaller demoparties do mimic some of the rules from bigger ones.
Anyway that's a digression, going back to coding.
That's the reason why I went to (and preferred) smaller events since.
The fact is however that a lot of smaller demoparties do mimic some of the rules from bigger ones.
Anyway that's a digression, going back to coding.
kaneel: You did? Oh good, because that's exactly what I meant to communicate (you know, except for the actual words I've used which state something different, but don't let that stop you from being judgemental and predisposed).
Gloom,
Demoscene Police, Pre-crime Division
Gloom,
Demoscene Police, Pre-crime Division
Imho, ROME is not too different to this. In fact, it may be even more appropriate as you don't have to pay for watching the actual demo. And you can even download the source code - although I'm aware it's something the demoscene doesn't really care about.
ROME was done to showcase what could be done with WebGL. I guess it's the fact that is interactive makes it not "demoscener". And that's really sad.
TL;DR I'm with ps.
ROME was done to showcase what could be done with WebGL. I guess it's the fact that is interactive makes it not "demoscener". And that's really sad.
TL;DR I'm with ps.
Demos were interactive right from the start (not always, but often). I think it's only competitions at parties that pushed that out - you can't interact between a big audience and a demo easily.
trace: I'm not sure who you're referring to now, so I'll just assume it's me (everyone else does, apparently). I'll repeat what I've actually said: it's not that Rome isn't great, cool, showcasey or borderline demosceneish. It's not that it's not inspiring, not breaking new ground or shouldn't be seen by sceners.
It's that the prod release database at Pouet (yes, that sharply focused) isn't the right place for it. That is all.
It's that the prod release database at Pouet (yes, that sharply focused) isn't the right place for it. That is all.
..and, I have also said that I think that is a shame, but that that's just what Pouet is right now -- hopefully, in the future, there would be a different type of categorization, but if not, that is okay too: there is nothing wrong with keeping Pouet as a demoscene prod database. Rome (and productions like it) have SOOO many more venues to be showcased (many more than demos), and in fact, it definitely belongs on Pouet (like here, as a point of debate on the BBS), just not as a "Demo" by "Google".
I have now repeated myself so many times that if people continue to just "react" to something else because they feel like it, the Fox Newsness of Pouet is officially complete and I give up :)
I have now repeated myself so many times that if people continue to just "react" to something else because they feel like it, the Fox Newsness of Pouet is officially complete and I give up :)
Mr. Doob: I think the main problem to put ROME on pouet.net is the fact that it was MOSTLY done by a commercial company and not by a group of sceners :)
does it belong on pouet? let the makers decide: if they add it it belongs. the demoscene is opt-in. :)
now this new tech ranting. the scene is more open to change than you think. you just need to make something worth it to persuade people. iq seemed to manage it, for example. :)
some people seem to think using a new platform or technology makes things cool. it doesnt; its cool if you use it to do something thats cool. use your new tech to do something new and amazing and people will be won over fast; but if it seems worse than what we had already, whats the point? I wont be giving anyone a thumb up for making a demo in webgl or processing or on a distributed setup or whatever. ill give you a thumb up for making a good demo, though.
now this new tech ranting. the scene is more open to change than you think. you just need to make something worth it to persuade people. iq seemed to manage it, for example. :)
some people seem to think using a new platform or technology makes things cool. it doesnt; its cool if you use it to do something thats cool. use your new tech to do something new and amazing and people will be won over fast; but if it seems worse than what we had already, whats the point? I wont be giving anyone a thumb up for making a demo in webgl or processing or on a distributed setup or whatever. ill give you a thumb up for making a good demo, though.
melon, plastic and futuremark all have 'commercial' prods on here too rez. They also have scene connections, and a 'demoish' element in the prod. It's just a big grey area, and the further it gets from 'core scene prod' the greyer it gets.
and btw, thats why id be torn on how to rate ro.me. id have said this if I were commenting on pouet:
"good, but could have been better: the graphics and design are really nice, but its slow and the engine/rendering seems dated for a pc demo in 2011" ;)
"good, but could have been better: the graphics and design are really nice, but its slow and the engine/rendering seems dated for a pc demo in 2011" ;)
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All that sets us apart from those things is our own quirky compo rules and our history.
yeah, those pesky little ideals of small independent groups of people with a passion for digital creativity who refuse for their creations to be dictated by business interests. time to dissolve those worthless ideals.
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Thing is, a 'demo' is so loosely defined that half the stuff out there on the web could be in the pouet DB.
no they couldn't, because the people who create that stuff have either created it for corporations, or their creator's simply are not "part of the demoscene community".
it's strange that every other creative outlet is allowed to have ideals and creative philosophies (Google CERTAINLY have theirs) but the demoscene should feel inferior, lose its identity and just disappear or hide behind all the other (largely) commercial driven trash out there.
the Google tech-vid is nice and all, kudos Mr. Doob with backing from Google. but there IS (should be) a demoscene philosophy and one historical aspect of that is essentially anti-corporatism. as psionic hinted, that comes from the "history" of the scene (ie: the root of demos: the cracktro as well as the idea of independent groups/collectives of humans)
Ro.me is not exactly a PC demo ;).
New platform/technology can have different constraints (it's not necessarly a computing power thing ).
My point was: I think it's a bit sad we don't see more "killer" demoscene prods on the new emerging platforms (eg: mobile, browser).
(I agree Ro.me is not a demoscene prod
and so, if pouet = demosceneprod db, should not belong to pouet db... but that's the problem!)
New platform/technology can have different constraints (it's not necessarly a computing power thing ).
My point was: I think it's a bit sad we don't see more "killer" demoscene prods on the new emerging platforms (eg: mobile, browser).
(I agree Ro.me is not a demoscene prod
and so, if pouet = demosceneprod db, should not belong to pouet db... but that's the problem!)
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yeah, those pesky little ideals of small independent groups of people with a passion for digital creativity who refuse for their creations to be dictated by business interests. time to dissolve those worthless ideals.
...which is not what I said at all. Why are you reading all that into it?
[quote]no they couldn't, because the people who create that stuff have either created it for corporations, or their creator's simply are not "part of the demoscene community". [quote]
By any technical definition of a demo, yes they could. And if a corporation pays a demo group to make a demo, it is, by definition, a demo.
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it's strange that every other creative outlet is allowed to have ideals and creative philosophies (Google CERTAINLY have theirs) but the demoscene should feel inferior, lose its identity and just disappear or hide behind all the other (largely) commercial driven trash out there.
the Google tech-vid is nice and all, kudos Mr. Doob with backing from Google. but there IS (should be) a demoscene philosophy and one historical aspect of that is essentially anti-corporatism. as psionic hinted, that comes from the "history" of the scene (ie: the root of demos: the cracktro as well as the idea of independent groups/collectives of humans)
See, that's moving on from ideals and creative philosophies into politics. Keep politics the fuck out, it has nothing to do with the scene. I don't think we should have any creative philosophy either, except maybe "fuck you, I'll do what I want". We have a strong culture though, of demo parties, hardcore code, and scene spirit/attitude.
Dear Gloom,
I am really, truly, sorry you took my joke personally.
See, I didn't know all the people who posted in this thread were fake account created by you and you only.
Also, I want you to know that I truly respect people who want to be little girls, myself, I would love to.
I am really, truly, sorry you took my joke personally.
See, I didn't know all the people who posted in this thread were fake account created by you and you only.
Also, I want you to know that I truly respect people who want to be little girls, myself, I would love to.
trace: congratulations! ro.me is a really nice project, with interactive elements that also reminded me about LiS (camera and such) but done with better preproduction. It looks like you began with the interactive effect made from animals and not added it in post process. For me it does not matter if the project is commercial or not. It's important if it's cool or not (like smash said about platforms). Let's not act like hypocrites. We all watch coded/interactive/videoart outside of demoscene and we don't ask ourselves about budgets or the origins of the artists.
And does ro.me belongs to pouet? I guess yes because it's demoscenish and it's realtime. But on other hand it would be hard to enter the group ;).
So you should rely on comments from this thread.
From me it's thumb up :)
And does ro.me belongs to pouet? I guess yes because it's demoscenish and it's realtime. But on other hand it would be hard to enter the group ;).
So you should rely on comments from this thread.
From me it's thumb up :)
What bonzaj said.
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Mr.Doob|Trace works at Google in the Data Arts Team.kudos Mr. Doob with backing from Google.
To paraphrase what I wrote as a comment on the prod 30 seconds before it was deleted: it's true that there is no strict definition of what constitutes a demo. For any criteria you define - realtime, non-interactive, non-commercial, distributed as an exe, presented at a demo party, "has demoish visuals", created by a team who call themselves a demo group, created by a team that doesn't include 10 project managers - there are always going to be exceptions. But that doesn't mean that such definitions are useless and that the all-encompassing view is the only valid one. At some point, when a piece of work breaks enough of those 'soft' rules, it ceases to be a demo and becomes "an awesome thing that some talented people made in their day job".
Another thing - why do we need this to 'belong' to the demoscene anyway, or feel disappointed that a big corporation got there first? Can we not just be happy that something with clear demoscene influence has made its way into the wider culture?
Another thing - why do we need this to 'belong' to the demoscene anyway, or feel disappointed that a big corporation got there first? Can we not just be happy that something with clear demoscene influence has made its way into the wider culture?
