The demoscene in the 2010s
category: general [glöplog]
jcl: with no realtime requirement, it doesn't matter how fast or slow the rasteriser is. Kkapture isn't exactly fast, but we might be looking at a demo that takes a week to render, it doesn't matter.
And of course the point IS to upload the video, i wasn't too clear on that :D The point is that for 90% of people, realtime or not isn't practically relevant: they watch a video of the demo, and know it's coded.
For some demos, the amazing part is still "Shit, this is realtime?!". For others, it's not, so I'd say 90% of the people watching realtime is not really that important.
Anyway, I don't expect non-realtime to replace the scene we have now. But I do think a non-realtime but coded category could be a ton of fun, and a new branch in the scene.
And of course the point IS to upload the video, i wasn't too clear on that :D The point is that for 90% of people, realtime or not isn't practically relevant: they watch a video of the demo, and know it's coded.
For some demos, the amazing part is still "Shit, this is realtime?!". For others, it's not, so I'd say 90% of the people watching realtime is not really that important.
Anyway, I don't expect non-realtime to replace the scene we have now. But I do think a non-realtime but coded category could be a ton of fun, and a new branch in the scene.
demoscene in the 2010s... 50% less demos, 200% more jibber jabber!
@smash:
I don't think our views are at a polar opposition at all, we just might have a different conception about what constitutes a platform.
To quite many users, using a PC actually means using a virtual platform, the web browser. Most users have a better grasp about how their PC performs on websites than how they perform with 3D engines. I never use a PC for running native demos, playing native games or writing native hardware-accelerated 3D code, so I don't have a real grasp about the actual graphical performance of the PCs I use either.
To an aspiring democoder in today's world, "native code" doesn't therefore necessarily mean anything more profound or more glorified than non-native code. There's not that much difference in downloading a C++ IDE, a Flash IDE or even a C-64 emulator with a Turbo Assembler disk image. They're all on the same line. They're like different games with different kinds of challenges. The relationship with the underlying hardware doesn't matter as much as the "game" itself.
@Gargaj: There will be a beginner democompo at the next Altparty :)
I don't think our views are at a polar opposition at all, we just might have a different conception about what constitutes a platform.
To quite many users, using a PC actually means using a virtual platform, the web browser. Most users have a better grasp about how their PC performs on websites than how they perform with 3D engines. I never use a PC for running native demos, playing native games or writing native hardware-accelerated 3D code, so I don't have a real grasp about the actual graphical performance of the PCs I use either.
To an aspiring democoder in today's world, "native code" doesn't therefore necessarily mean anything more profound or more glorified than non-native code. There's not that much difference in downloading a C++ IDE, a Flash IDE or even a C-64 emulator with a Turbo Assembler disk image. They're all on the same line. They're like different games with different kinds of challenges. The relationship with the underlying hardware doesn't matter as much as the "game" itself.
@Gargaj: There will be a beginner democompo at the next Altparty :)
to me, the key point was, is, and always will be the realtime part.
and it does not matter if it runs on my own hardware: if i know for sure it runs realtime on an existing hardware, and it looks amazing for that, i have the demoscene feeling i like.
and that sure is different with a video or a non-realtime demo. a (full-frame) video to me misses the whole point of a demo, and i sure as hell would lose contact with a demoscene which only produces videos.
and it does not matter if it runs on my own hardware: if i know for sure it runs realtime on an existing hardware, and it looks amazing for that, i have the demoscene feeling i like.
and that sure is different with a video or a non-realtime demo. a (full-frame) video to me misses the whole point of a demo, and i sure as hell would lose contact with a demoscene which only produces videos.
viz: i think gargaj knows about the compo. i also think hes not too fond of it (as many (older) sceners).
while i hope there are gonna be some newcomers motivated by such a compo many sceners are to believe that it does not help at all (plus the rules arent that waterproof either as the orgas say themselfes).
i guess we'll see what comes out of it.
while i hope there are gonna be some newcomers motivated by such a compo many sceners are to believe that it does not help at all (plus the rules arent that waterproof either as the orgas say themselfes).
i guess we'll see what comes out of it.
"So I wish I could play little league now, I'd kick some fuckin' ass."
"a (full-frame) video to me misses the whole point of a demo, and i sure as hell would lose contact with a demoscene which only produces videos."
amen. if i want to watch artsy short movies, i look for them at the right places, and the scene isnt one of them.
amen. if i want to watch artsy short movies, i look for them at the right places, and the scene isnt one of them.
"a (full-frame) video to me misses the whole point of a demo, and i sure as hell would lose contact with a demoscene which only produces videos."
amen. if i want to watch artsy short movies, i look for them at the right places, and the scene isnt one of them.
amen. if i want to watch artsy short movies, i look for them at the right places, and the scene isnt one of them.
also there still is that problem with reposting on reload :)
I'm so going to start a thread entilted "Demomusic in the 2010s"
@hempest:
Yes, I totally agree that historical platforms have a strong appeal exactly because of their history and tradition. And the platforms with a long demoscene tradition will definitely keep their status despite all the new platforms or categories that may appear.
However, I would like to point out that all the historical platforms that the demoscene has been exploring aren't all that historical to begin with. In around 2001-2004 there were several groups writing demos for a platform called "unexpanded VIC-20 with a disk drive". It is a combination of real historical devices, but in a way that would have made no sense in the 1980s. Years ago, some retrocomputing enthusiast wrote an "open letter to the VIC-20 demoscene" stating that this configuration isn't "retro" at all. Several VIC-20 sceners furiously responded by stating that they are not doing this because it's supposed to be "retro" but because of the challenge.
I don't know how many people will be experimenting with totally artificial virtual platforms, but I'm quite sure that there will be at least some. Just like there were many people in the 00s who experimented with various obscure historical platforms that had no prior demoscene activity whatsoever.
Yes, I totally agree that historical platforms have a strong appeal exactly because of their history and tradition. And the platforms with a long demoscene tradition will definitely keep their status despite all the new platforms or categories that may appear.
However, I would like to point out that all the historical platforms that the demoscene has been exploring aren't all that historical to begin with. In around 2001-2004 there were several groups writing demos for a platform called "unexpanded VIC-20 with a disk drive". It is a combination of real historical devices, but in a way that would have made no sense in the 1980s. Years ago, some retrocomputing enthusiast wrote an "open letter to the VIC-20 demoscene" stating that this configuration isn't "retro" at all. Several VIC-20 sceners furiously responded by stating that they are not doing this because it's supposed to be "retro" but because of the challenge.
I don't know how many people will be experimenting with totally artificial virtual platforms, but I'm quite sure that there will be at least some. Just like there were many people in the 00s who experimented with various obscure historical platforms that had no prior demoscene activity whatsoever.
"Democompo for beginners" sounds like a terrible idea. The whole point of entering a demo compo is to see it on the big screen next to, and compete with, the groups you love. Throwing some sort of "special olympics" demo compo couldn't be a worse idea. :/
[offtopic] may I take the opportunity to say how much I despise java*.* [/offtopic]
I'm totally with Gloom. 100%. Terrible idea!
besides, don't we already have c64 compos for special needs sceners?!
I have to say at this point that this is a case study thread. Wish pouet had more like this...
Yet another thing to consider... in about a month there has been 680 entries submitted to the Javascript 1k compo. http://js1k.com/demos A shame there is no link from that page to scene.org...
If you look at the number of entries released at parties you can feel it's going down year by year, but suddenly a internet compo gets a huge amount of entries. Makes me wonder if we are doing something wrong...
If you look at the number of entries released at parties you can feel it's going down year by year, but suddenly a internet compo gets a huge amount of entries. Makes me wonder if we are doing something wrong...
seems to me the scene is doing just fine, I don't recognize the whole "it's going down year by year" thing
it's all fine, let's have a beer.
Since I haven't really checked and compared I will refrain from pulling numbers out of my arse about amount of entries at a party from year to year.
I do however have a general feel about focus shifting every now and then, people want to have their releases out at party X one year and perhaps party Y the next, might have something to do with organizer wanting to do something else for while than the same party year after year :)
That said, more and more parties seem to accept remote entries - perhaps one should compare that to the JS 1k compo "effect". Has this helped in any way?
[somewhat off topic]This thread is the best one Ive read in quite some time, and I don't mean that in any bashing sort of way![/somewhat off topic]
[completely off topic] Navis you hater :( [/completely off topic]
I do however have a general feel about focus shifting every now and then, people want to have their releases out at party X one year and perhaps party Y the next, might have something to do with organizer wanting to do something else for while than the same party year after year :)
That said, more and more parties seem to accept remote entries - perhaps one should compare that to the JS 1k compo "effect". Has this helped in any way?
[somewhat off topic]This thread is the best one Ive read in quite some time, and I don't mean that in any bashing sort of way![/somewhat off topic]
[completely off topic] Navis you hater :( [/completely off topic]
I was about to write a big detailed post about my deep thoughts about all that, but finally I prefer to just declare this thread worthless.
It is great that there is so much interest in 1k java compos. As another platform it could only bring more people in here.
Java* sucks for all those reasons that you'll find if you google "javascript/jav sucks"; but then again I may be biased because I had to learn it at uni by force :-)
Java* sucks for all those reasons that you'll find if you google "javascript/jav sucks"; but then again I may be biased because I had to learn it at uni by force :-)
Java or javascript? Or both? (guess you mean both, but it does read like you've not noticed that they're different :)
The js1k is nice and fresh, but to enter a <canvas>-compo you have to give up :
- double-buffering
- most hardware acceleration
- programmability
The filtering and even color space of canvases is implementation dependent. You do not know how your colors will look and how your images will be resampled.
The list goes on and on. Flash 10 is in better shape atm.
Let's hope WebGL will fix that.
- double-buffering
- most hardware acceleration
- programmability
The filtering and even color space of canvases is implementation dependent. You do not know how your colors will look and how your images will be resampled.
The list goes on and on. Flash 10 is in better shape atm.
Let's hope WebGL will fix that.
