Windows 7 and intros
category: general [glöplog]
oh, and maybe not bundling directx with a 4k, but a web-installer stub kind of thing for DX would be actually nifty. The DirectX web installer is merely 20kb in size and does not download anything which is already installed.
Not saying the 4kb should force it, but having it available on its side would probably help watch them without having to "figure out" where to get the needed dlls.
Not saying the 4kb should force it, but having it available on its side would probably help watch them without having to "figure out" where to get the needed dlls.
*irony* bah, Javascript will one day rule them all! */irony*
nontheless, the current efforts (positive vendor competition race) of making javascript faster (google chrome et. al.) and possibly into a VM-powered language like .NET (possible in theory?) is quite interresting IMHO.. paired with webGL might be a lot of fun in the end, when browsers are dealing with vsync and stuff properly.
jcl: if the installer is only 20kb (i guess crinkler won't help? :) that's probably a better result than the "DLL missing" errors. It's not like we're making 4ks because of any actual size limitation other than a compo rule these days, and the difference in download time won't even be noticeable..
People will still complain it's not 4k when they have to download it, but they'll do that anyway, or not watch the demo at all.
Jaw: maybe. A lot of the time these days it's pure GPU power that's needed, so javascript speed is probably already enough. Well, for things like 1/4kbs where it's mostly shader.
People will still complain it's not 4k when they have to download it, but they'll do that anyway, or not watch the demo at all.
Jaw: maybe. A lot of the time these days it's pure GPU power that's needed, so javascript speed is probably already enough. Well, for things like 1/4kbs where it's mostly shader.
psonice: actually 293kb... i swear i once saw one being 20kb but don't know where. Maybe we could crinkler it? :-)
http://download.microsoft.com/download/1/7/1/1718CCC4-6315-4D8E-9543-8E28A4E18C4C/dxwebsetup.exe
http://download.microsoft.com/download/1/7/1/1718CCC4-6315-4D8E-9543-8E28A4E18C4C/dxwebsetup.exe
you'd rather want to kkrunch it.
@jcl, psonice:
You guys talk about MS as if it's one entity... I've worked in the windows, office, and devdiv orgs during my 5+ years at MS. It's not one entity. It's several large very seperate ProfitNLoss divisions composed of hierarchies of product/platform groups dozens of layers deep, all competing with each other for the same resources and budget. Why are there 15 different UI API? Because if you make the one that wins, you're rewarded and famous. The upside is that those all compete in the market and the best one gets used in the hot new thing. Then those people get bonuses.
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so I still think MS is to blame here
You guys talk about MS as if it's one entity... I've worked in the windows, office, and devdiv orgs during my 5+ years at MS. It's not one entity. It's several large very seperate ProfitNLoss divisions composed of hierarchies of product/platform groups dozens of layers deep, all competing with each other for the same resources and budget. Why are there 15 different UI API? Because if you make the one that wins, you're rewarded and famous. The upside is that those all compete in the market and the best one gets used in the hot new thing. Then those people get bonuses.
GbND: precisely
That was kind of what i was referring to here
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They will probably start changing their mind about the distribution method, but with something that big, in companies like microsoft, it usually takes time and tons of paperwork and ahead-studies... it's not like they can just say "hey, include it on ms-update" and be done with it the next day :-)
That was kind of what i was referring to here
jcl: you're not allowed to redistribute dxwebsetup anyway. And it should be almost as good just to point to http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=2da43d38-db71-4c1b-bc6a-9b6652cd92a3
(but still better to link against older version, when the new features aren't used anyway - that won't take space ;)
(but still better to link against older version, when the new features aren't used anyway - that won't take space ;)
No, definitely link to the latest version I think. Maybe it's not necessary for this particular intro, but I can see it getting annoying if you sit down to watch some 4kbs and have to update between every demo! Much better to just get the latest and be done with it for a while.
GbND: that makes some business sense, but it's still MS's fault. They should support the 4kb scene damn it! :)
GbND: that makes some business sense, but it's still MS's fault. They should support the 4kb scene damn it! :)
psonice: heh. Once there's more than 1 active scener at a time in all of MS it'll probably get easier.
maaaaahhh, just pause those multigigabyte pr0n downloads, the Avatar torrent and the cracked Adobe Premier download for a minute and get the damn 3 megabytes DLL!!
Don't you make the effort to go pouet? Don't you even do the effort of downloading 100 megabytes of LifeForce.mp4 and Debris.mov? Please get the damn 3 MB DLL, or complain for ever (but in silence please) that it's all Microsoft's that will kill the demoscene because they didn't think of the 4k intros.
Don't you make the effort to go pouet? Don't you even do the effort of downloading 100 megabytes of LifeForce.mp4 and Debris.mov? Please get the damn 3 MB DLL, or complain for ever (but in silence please) that it's all Microsoft's that will kill the demoscene because they didn't think of the 4k intros.
iq, use gl instead of dx. that'll solve his problem :)
(oh, and don't use extensions!!)
(oh, and don't use extensions!!)
don't watch intros and other scene productions. THAT solves his problem.
This isn't my problem - I just download the dll and watch the intro (or more often, start watching, give up because my hardware is too old, and download the video.. but hey, I won't complain about that unless I think it's really the coder's fault ;)
Looking through the prod comments though (and some of the comments in this thread) it's pretty obvious that there is some problem here. A lot of people are failing to run these intros, and a lot are thinking "this isn't 4k" when they're asked to download big files. If there's a better way, it'd be a good thing to find it.
Looking through the prod comments though (and some of the comments in this thread) it's pretty obvious that there is some problem here. A lot of people are failing to run these intros, and a lot are thinking "this isn't 4k" when they're asked to download big files. If there's a better way, it'd be a good thing to find it.
I guess it's all about who your audience you want to be. If you want to show your demo to the mainstream public (like in "my colleagues in the office/university and in forums out there), then go plain shaders 2.0 + dx9 = megacompatible mode (like fr used to do). If your audience are a demo compo watchers in a party, then you try to exploit the hardware.
I have this cheap computer that I use for everything, from 2 or 3 years ago with XP that I use to run most if not all demos/intros (but texas). Once a year I spend 2 minutes to download d3dx9_??.dll from the link I gave, and I continue watching demos for another year. So what can I say, I don't get what the trouble is.
I have this cheap computer that I use for everything, from 2 or 3 years ago with XP that I use to run most if not all demos/intros (but texas). Once a year I spend 2 minutes to download d3dx9_??.dll from the link I gave, and I continue watching demos for another year. So what can I say, I don't get what the trouble is.
If the problem is "then it's not 4k", then read the thread.
If the problem is "but intros are slow", then wait until you have a better PC.
If you are still unhappy then stop watching intros, cause people making them are making them exactly because they want to abuse hw, apis, boundaries, etc, and not to ensure some sort of works-for-all-audiences type of certificate. So the battle is lost for the side of the complainers.
If the problem is "but intros are slow", then wait until you have a better PC.
If you are still unhappy then stop watching intros, cause people making them are making them exactly because they want to abuse hw, apis, boundaries, etc, and not to ensure some sort of works-for-all-audiences type of certificate. So the battle is lost for the side of the complainers.
Nevertheless, you are free to make an intro the way you like and win Assembly. If you do so with a GL 1.1 (without shaders please, do not cheat and ask me to install a driver) then congratulations, you can stamp the "this product makes you happy" (Copyright fr) cause you are making so many demowatcher's lifes so much better for not having to download the damn DLL, and the proper "in your face" to your nfo file and come back to this thread and post about it.
(I don't know why I'm taking this so seriously, it must be the lack of cubes to complain about, or the alcohol)
(I don't know why I'm taking this so seriously, it must be the lack of cubes to complain about, or the alcohol)
^- :D
iq: you missed my point there. I want to see intros using the latest hardware, I understand the situation with dx and like you just download the dll once in a while, and if my hardware is too slow that's my problem and I'll live with the video until I upgrade next time.
What I do see as being a 'problem' is that this whole issue is limiting our audience and making awesome 4ks look pretty stupid to a lot of people who don't know what these dlls are for. If I email a mind-blowing 4k to somebody, then when it doesn't work I have to tell them it also needs another file of several MB, either they no longer believe it's an awesome 4k or I waste a bunch of time explaining the situation with DX and a bunch of other crap.
Is it just me thinking that's a pretty shitty situation?
What I do see as being a 'problem' is that this whole issue is limiting our audience and making awesome 4ks look pretty stupid to a lot of people who don't know what these dlls are for. If I email a mind-blowing 4k to somebody, then when it doesn't work I have to tell them it also needs another file of several MB, either they no longer believe it's an awesome 4k or I waste a bunch of time explaining the situation with DX and a bunch of other crap.
Is it just me thinking that's a pretty shitty situation?
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And it should be almost as good just to point to http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=2da43d38-db71-4c1b-bc6a -9b6652cd92a3
Or simply http://tinyurl.com/directx-eur.
I think I got the point. As I said, the limitation of the audience is voluntary when you choose your technology. Some people might be pissed of by not being included in that audience (just like I am excluded from Amiga demos, but I don't cry, I get an emulator or go to parties). And as I said, if they don't see/understand the reason for them to be excluded, they shoud learn what the DLL is (reading this thread for example) and download it. If they don't want, then they shouldn't complain. The option is as you say spending a bunch of time explaining them what it is.Well, I spend a bunch of time explaining people what they see in the intro anyway, that it is 4k, what a kilobyte is, what's realtime and how's different from a movie, what is maths and what procedural is, and in the end why 4k intros are amazing.
It should be easier to explain sceners what the D3DX DLL is and what it is used for. If after explaining what it is and why we NEED it, if some demosceners still dont (want to) understand what that it is for and why it has to be downloaded, then well, I tend to believe they are complaining just cause they like to rant, flameware and write "DX/Microsoft/Windows/PC sucks" instead. It's not like the intro makers wouldn't like to get rid of that DLL, cause it brings no real benefit sizewise (as explained). It's an architectural limitation of the platform of choice.
It should be easier to explain sceners what the D3DX DLL is and what it is used for. If after explaining what it is and why we NEED it, if some demosceners still dont (want to) understand what that it is for and why it has to be downloaded, then well, I tend to believe they are complaining just cause they like to rant, flameware and write "DX/Microsoft/Windows/PC sucks" instead. It's not like the intro makers wouldn't like to get rid of that DLL, cause it brings no real benefit sizewise (as explained). It's an architectural limitation of the platform of choice.