Demoscene, the youth & future - And outreaching
category: general [glöplog]
gloom: interesting, portuguese scene never took off essencially because of not enough booze.
The PC french scene does not booze and it's not superb at the moment.
My grasp of the situation right now is that the 8-bit (CPC) and 16-bit (Atari) french sceners are in a way more active socially and production-wise. They are also separated from the scene we are talking about here and now, so are also flying "under the radar."
These separated scenes manifested when I attended the two "Demo In Paris" nights. They have their own blogs, their own discussion channels, their own parties. They communicate with each other, and are closer to what the PC scene used to be.
It seems we are overlooking this very special point ― and the internet does not help ― that each platform carries a distinct scene. And too often outreach efforts are giving the message that there is a historical progresssions behind the platforms, when it would be more relevant today to see them as disctinct sub-scenes with particular styles and traditions. To each their own.
Regarding criticism of early works: it's only applicable on pouet. When such works are entered at a party, people stay polite and give words of encouragement. We could tell newcomers to avoid checking out pouet.net at all, unfortunately that advice in this day and age is pretty hard to follow.
And as for the "unbridled creativity" motivation. Let me put it this way: Creativity is not the right word to use: it's a value under attack, as almost anything is called being creative nowadays. Being a "creative" is selling soap, nowadays. Telling newcomers that the scene is also where you can freely experiment is also doing them a disservice, as it is not expected, and they will get bashed for it.
If you release a demo at a party, your demo as to adhere to certain traditions to be qualified or recognized
If you release a demo outside a party
.. well, what makes it a demo when you are a newcomer? What distinguishes a demo from other artistic software:
1- is either adhering to stylistic or format traditions ― so good luck with experimentation
2- or being a recognized scener ― so good luck, newcomer
3- or being released to traditional channels used by sceners (pouet.net, scene.org) ― you will receive harsch feedback or get ignored. Hardly motivating for the newcomer.
My grasp of the situation right now is that the 8-bit (CPC) and 16-bit (Atari) french sceners are in a way more active socially and production-wise. They are also separated from the scene we are talking about here and now, so are also flying "under the radar."
These separated scenes manifested when I attended the two "Demo In Paris" nights. They have their own blogs, their own discussion channels, their own parties. They communicate with each other, and are closer to what the PC scene used to be.
It seems we are overlooking this very special point ― and the internet does not help ― that each platform carries a distinct scene. And too often outreach efforts are giving the message that there is a historical progresssions behind the platforms, when it would be more relevant today to see them as disctinct sub-scenes with particular styles and traditions. To each their own.
Regarding criticism of early works: it's only applicable on pouet. When such works are entered at a party, people stay polite and give words of encouragement. We could tell newcomers to avoid checking out pouet.net at all, unfortunately that advice in this day and age is pretty hard to follow.
And as for the "unbridled creativity" motivation. Let me put it this way: Creativity is not the right word to use: it's a value under attack, as almost anything is called being creative nowadays. Being a "creative" is selling soap, nowadays. Telling newcomers that the scene is also where you can freely experiment is also doing them a disservice, as it is not expected, and they will get bashed for it.
If you release a demo at a party, your demo as to adhere to certain traditions to be qualified or recognized
If you release a demo outside a party
.. well, what makes it a demo when you are a newcomer? What distinguishes a demo from other artistic software:
1- is either adhering to stylistic or format traditions ― so good luck with experimentation
2- or being a recognized scener ― so good luck, newcomer
3- or being released to traditional channels used by sceners (pouet.net, scene.org) ― you will receive harsch feedback or get ignored. Hardly motivating for the newcomer.
I guess I left the possibility for the newcomer in question to join an established group.
Which sounds like the best and most natural option, actually.
Which sounds like the best and most natural option, actually.
This is interesting:
If you are of this opinion, then why would you be attracted to the demoscene when, surely, there are far more suitable alternatives around? With very few exceptions, stories in demos are cheesy at best. This isn't a flame bait, I am truly curious about this: If you value the story over technical- and demoscene community-elements in a demo, then you have to compare that demo to productions (short films springs to mind) that put equal emphasis on those qualities. If the demoscene should have intrinsic value, and if its members does not care about realtime, then the whole structure is pointless and artificial. Right?
Quote:
What I personally find appealing in demos, are the ones with story, really strong flow and overall "artistic" approach.
If you are of this opinion, then why would you be attracted to the demoscene when, surely, there are far more suitable alternatives around? With very few exceptions, stories in demos are cheesy at best. This isn't a flame bait, I am truly curious about this: If you value the story over technical- and demoscene community-elements in a demo, then you have to compare that demo to productions (short films springs to mind) that put equal emphasis on those qualities. If the demoscene should have intrinsic value, and if its members does not care about realtime, then the whole structure is pointless and artificial. Right?
That also could be understood as being interested by all the other qualities of a demo, and recognizing that those who manage to include a semblance of story in addition to those (technical, idiosyncratic) qualities are in a particular class of its own.
In summary: his preferences towards story and consistent aesthetics are not necessarly excluding the other qualities.
In summary: his preferences towards story and consistent aesthetics are not necessarly excluding the other qualities.
Hyde: sound a bi like the old Odyssey (with story) vs Hardwired (without story but based on routines) debate.
Why did Hardwired got 2nd ?;)
Why did Hardwired got 2nd ?;)
Quote:
The stuff I saw in demo-competition wasn't anything I didn't see in movies or games. Of 64k I thought that there was simply too much data for it to be interesting at all. 4k and old-school I really ever took any note of [...]
Quote:
I don't think it's the big flashy demos, with their millions of polygons and fancy shaders at Assembly. Those at best get the votes of the not-so-scene-interested gamers and geeks. Creating much of that stuff simply holds little appeal. It takes huge amount of time, there's little sense in even coding much of it when you could just as well do it as an animation.
Quote:
Depending the individual, old school presentations don't necessarily hold such appeal either. Even if it is for C64, if it's appeal is mostly built on visuals and music with no thought of story, it'll usually fail to impress the people who are used to really BIG and fancy stuff.
hehe, it sounds like I'm trying to throw this guy off the cliff :) That was not intentional. I'm just saying, if his opnion (as I read it) is shared by others coming from the outside, we're doooooooooomed :)
___--_--__--____---___---: but sure, I agree that a good demo gets better if supplied with design in any of its forms: colours, "direction", etc.
ook, gotta watch "the office" now. later.
ook, gotta watch "the office" now. later.
And I also agree with you that coming to demos for the "story" is like going to ask car mechanics to perform one's own heart surgery.
(The same is true for videogames, as an aside)
(The same is true for videogames, as an aside)
show cool flashy demos to as many people as possible, maybe point out that there's no giant corporate logo at the end or that the particles don't form a giant detergent box
i was drawn in by the bighouse effects of debris/lifeforce at first and my interests in the scene are really diverse now, i love the older platforms (hey i had a spectrum once too), love wilds, the showoff party prods, pretty much everything, cant wait to develop my own style and join in
- youngin #39999
i was drawn in by the bighouse effects of debris/lifeforce at first and my interests in the scene are really diverse now, i love the older platforms (hey i had a spectrum once too), love wilds, the showoff party prods, pretty much everything, cant wait to develop my own style and join in
- youngin #39999
walk into a room with a stack of Demo or Die and then leave without saying a word
Than do it :confused: !!
How old are you? YUP's open if you want a group and some good friends for help :)
But really this thread has gotten off topic soooooo fast....welcome to pouet.net I guess :D
How old are you? YUP's open if you want a group and some good friends for help :)
But really this thread has gotten off topic soooooo fast....welcome to pouet.net I guess :D
Haha you'd take me? I don't really know a huge lot about democoding yet, though I'm ok with c++ and I did some crappy direct3d tutorials a while ago, also I'm 21.
Not sure how long til i'll be able to really contribute codewise but if you're still interested after all these caveats then i'm totally up for it!!
****** OUTREACH SUCCESS STORY IN PROGRESS ****
Not sure how long til i'll be able to really contribute codewise but if you're still interested after all these caveats then i'm totally up for it!!
****** OUTREACH SUCCESS STORY IN PROGRESS ****
Well, not really. Seeing as you're already here, I'd rather call it an "integration story" really :)
:confused: - drop me a mail :) jaketaylor123[at]hotmail[dot]com .
Do you have msn? (primary YUP communication system :P)
Where you from?
This could be fun :) I love outreach
Do you have msn? (primary YUP communication system :P)
Where you from?
This could be fun :) I love outreach
gloom: fair enough :D
Additional information that Jake (Ferris) forgot to tell: Welcome to Youth Uprising. :)
### END OF OUTREACH SUCCESS STORY ###
### END OF OUTREACH SUCCESS STORY ###
heh sorry, thought it was given :D
Thanks dudes :) I'll fire off that email sometime soon.
And yep I've got MSN & stuff, should be no troubles. I'm from romania btw, kinda backwater but welps!
and yeah agreed, gloom :)
And yep I've got MSN & stuff, should be no troubles. I'm from romania btw, kinda backwater but welps!
and yeah agreed, gloom :)
come to function then! :)
yes, please do :)
:confused: I highly suggest Function, it was my first abroad party, and it still is one of the best ones I have ever been to.
Just don't follow Decipher's example and go to the wrong place :P haha
I don't think I can make it unfortunately, I have to retake a huge lot of exams during that period in september, but since its close i willl definitely keep it in mind for a year when i'm not such a slouch in uni :P