MindCandy Volume 3 - demo playlist feedback
category: general [glöplog]
What has been said several times now.
Don't assume that all outsiders find a kosmoplovci demo more off putting and grotesque than an 8 minute orgy in zooming and glowing stuff with prog rock soundtrack.
I liked pretty much everything on mindcandy 2, but I think it sucked that much of the amiga scene wasn't represented to make room for some groups to have several(and similar) demos included.
And mindcandy 3 is similar, I like all demos on the list but the selection is too much based on an idea of what's considered a great demo by the majority inside the demoscene ghetto.
Don't assume that all outsiders find a kosmoplovci demo more off putting and grotesque than an 8 minute orgy in zooming and glowing stuff with prog rock soundtrack.
I liked pretty much everything on mindcandy 2, but I think it sucked that much of the amiga scene wasn't represented to make room for some groups to have several(and similar) demos included.
And mindcandy 3 is similar, I like all demos on the list but the selection is too much based on an idea of what's considered a great demo by the majority inside the demoscene ghetto.
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It's supposed to be grey with occasional glowing outline, just like in kahvi video.
But that doesn't sounds as cool as "glowing white hot". Not mainstream enough. Plus, that will drain the bitrate available for other demos. So glowing white hot version will go into mindcandy 3.
Kinda looks like a Farbrausch+MFX+ASD tribute. No doubt their works are influential but little more variety wouldn't hurt. Nevertheless, my hat off for the effort involved in the Mindcandy project.
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But that doesn't sounds as cool as "glowing white hot". Not mainstream enough.
It's supposed to be as gray as alien brain with all the thoughts and visions that are far beyond human imagination. With a closer look you're able to dive into the alien's feral mind, though you have to be careful so it won't consume your mind, turning you into a japanese tentacle monster dancing in an empty disco somewhere in another galaxy. There's also a super hot nude woman that appears in a form of glowing outline.
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Plus, that will drain the bitrate available for other demos. So glowing white hot version will go into mindcandy 3.
Only if it helps to get Kolonija into the disc :)
noob question: can I, a paneuropean with a PAL tv play NTSC dvds?
depends on your dvd player afaik
Yes, you can, if your tv is less than 20 years old.
@hollowman: i reckon what the majority of demosceners find pleasing is very similar to what outsiders would find pleasing as well. obviously there are some artyfarts out there who just like ps get a boner from seeing noise, but they are as rare as unicorns in canada.
for them noiselovers, i recommend just to add a nonexisting frequency as a channel on their tuner which will provide them unlimited noise 24/7!
for them noiselovers, i recommend just to add a nonexisting frequency as a channel on their tuner which will provide them unlimited noise 24/7!
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@hollowman: i reckon what the majority of demosceners find pleasing is very similar to what outsiders would find pleasing as well.
Right, that explains everything! Phew! I can go to sleep now.
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i reckon what the majority of demosceners find pleasing is very similar to what outsiders would find pleasing as well.
So if I had put together a VHS tape 20 years ago with the most popular demos at that time, it is probable that outsiders would have enjoyed it most if it contained a couple of hours of swinging logos, moving rasterbars and scrolling texts?
@all
first, thank for undestanding and supporting my argument.
second, i believe there are still few things that still need to be said, so this wll be a bit longer.
i am very aware what does making a selection for different audiences involve, i personally did that hundreds of time, and not only in private sessions but also in public spaces and sometimes for hundreds of people, not only in serbia but on various places where we were taking part, regardless of it is 'art' or 'demoscene' or 'club' event. the actual list that you would present does take a certain 'adjustment' in the direction of public, but it does not mean that every aspect of the scene still deserves to be represented in its most succesfull forms.
for example, here are some of demos that i've played on samit1 event held in march 2007, this is only alphabetical list, they were played very much differently...
[win]
$ - dako_p
$ - trial error
asd - ambience for the masses
asd - antidote for the masses
blasphemy - moralhardcandy
clrsrc - 1 short beep
einklang.net - atomrave
halcyon - chimera
kewlers - protozoa
kolor - de profundis
mandula - live evil
matt current - bombman
matt current - contamination of the present governmental system
mfx - achromatopsia
mfx - aether
mfx - golem, arise
mfx - the ballet dancer
mfx - vorticity
minimalartifact - electro glide in black
pure1d_v102
satori - b10
satori - detox
satori - metamorf
kosmoplovci - d796
kosmoplovci - p351
[amiga]
ephidrena-lux_aetherna_lucia_eis.avi
pasmas_glogonj.mpg
[ps2]
soopadoopa-aura_for_laura_[xvid].avi
[video]
tomthumb.wmv
---
so, this is just one of random lists that i've pick on this occasions. on some other occasion i might put some others as well, but will always try to keep the idea of diversity in the first place and always present the best of all. because that is the demoscene, the only playfield left that actually allows creative diversity to develop and evolve. when making selection, i do put aside lots of my personal tastes, and go beyound it to find the most succesfull demos with different ideas and style rather than replicating same or similar ideas in different rendering.
in other words, i am never 'selling' the scene, in the way that i would never pick 'only the best' demos that would go under the skin of current public, but i always try to 'present' the scene in its true diversity, regardless of popularity of certain style, but also respecting all style and their benefits to the scene and the world. as real life, it has moments you may like and moments you might not like. simple as that.
i also believe mindcandy should be a media that can be used to present demoscene in different environments, not only for one particular (hollywood-like) public. you would be suprised how much 'artyfarts' and academics are increasingly getting interested in the scene, why would we alienate them by showing the demoscene only as flashy-high-profile-state-of-the-art demos, when they want to see some content, not only fx...
so, this is my point.
however, it is your project and you decide what to do, but be aware that public dvd selections, especially when they are known outside the scene, influence a lot on external perception of the scene, and i believe the scene always wants to be serious but also not serious at the same time, so why not even rob is jarig? it is one of the most widespread scene phenomena, as far as i reckon, so why not put it into PC DEMOS 2003-2009 anthology as a representative of one large part of the scene?
think about it.
and one more thing: DO NOT touch 828 and leave where it is - it is a masterpiece and i'm truly glad to see (at least) it making to mindcandy3 pre-list ;)
first, thank for undestanding and supporting my argument.
second, i believe there are still few things that still need to be said, so this wll be a bit longer.
i am very aware what does making a selection for different audiences involve, i personally did that hundreds of time, and not only in private sessions but also in public spaces and sometimes for hundreds of people, not only in serbia but on various places where we were taking part, regardless of it is 'art' or 'demoscene' or 'club' event. the actual list that you would present does take a certain 'adjustment' in the direction of public, but it does not mean that every aspect of the scene still deserves to be represented in its most succesfull forms.
for example, here are some of demos that i've played on samit1 event held in march 2007, this is only alphabetical list, they were played very much differently...
[win]
$ - dako_p
$ - trial error
asd - ambience for the masses
asd - antidote for the masses
blasphemy - moralhardcandy
clrsrc - 1 short beep
einklang.net - atomrave
halcyon - chimera
kewlers - protozoa
kolor - de profundis
mandula - live evil
matt current - bombman
matt current - contamination of the present governmental system
mfx - achromatopsia
mfx - aether
mfx - golem, arise
mfx - the ballet dancer
mfx - vorticity
minimalartifact - electro glide in black
pure1d_v102
satori - b10
satori - detox
satori - metamorf
kosmoplovci - d796
kosmoplovci - p351
[amiga]
ephidrena-lux_aetherna_lucia_eis.avi
pasmas_glogonj.mpg
[ps2]
soopadoopa-aura_for_laura_[xvid].avi
[video]
tomthumb.wmv
---
so, this is just one of random lists that i've pick on this occasions. on some other occasion i might put some others as well, but will always try to keep the idea of diversity in the first place and always present the best of all. because that is the demoscene, the only playfield left that actually allows creative diversity to develop and evolve. when making selection, i do put aside lots of my personal tastes, and go beyound it to find the most succesfull demos with different ideas and style rather than replicating same or similar ideas in different rendering.
in other words, i am never 'selling' the scene, in the way that i would never pick 'only the best' demos that would go under the skin of current public, but i always try to 'present' the scene in its true diversity, regardless of popularity of certain style, but also respecting all style and their benefits to the scene and the world. as real life, it has moments you may like and moments you might not like. simple as that.
i also believe mindcandy should be a media that can be used to present demoscene in different environments, not only for one particular (hollywood-like) public. you would be suprised how much 'artyfarts' and academics are increasingly getting interested in the scene, why would we alienate them by showing the demoscene only as flashy-high-profile-state-of-the-art demos, when they want to see some content, not only fx...
so, this is my point.
however, it is your project and you decide what to do, but be aware that public dvd selections, especially when they are known outside the scene, influence a lot on external perception of the scene, and i believe the scene always wants to be serious but also not serious at the same time, so why not even rob is jarig? it is one of the most widespread scene phenomena, as far as i reckon, so why not put it into PC DEMOS 2003-2009 anthology as a representative of one large part of the scene?
think about it.
and one more thing: DO NOT touch 828 and leave where it is - it is a masterpiece and i'm truly glad to see (at least) it making to mindcandy3 pre-list ;)
addendum about the demolist: no groups are omitted intentionally on this list (especially farb-rausch and sqny which is also played a lot). as i've said in previous posts, i try to randomize the titles, not to be boring to myself and others, that way giving old people chance to see new things, and at the same time giving new people chance to see best of diverse styles.
just wanted to be crystal clear. :)
just wanted to be crystal clear. :)
I think the list looks good, my favorite demos from the last years are all represented.
Perhaps there is a bit of an over-representation of some groups, there are a few instanced where I personally would have dropped a demo or two for those groups that have like five or more included and given some other group a spot.
However I think that the demos included do show off quite a bit of the different styles of scene.
You can't include everything just because someone, somewhere might enjoy it.
To draw a parallel - say you were to put together a collection of 'good movies'. You would then include some nice action flicks, some comedies and a couple of dramas perhaps.
If then some artsy-fartsy types start going 'but oh why didn't you include the black-and-white documentary about knitting in Ukraine or that wonderful 8-hour movie of someone sleeping shot with one static camera - those movies are TRUE ART!!one!!1' you probably best ignore them... :)
I say stick with the blockbusters!
Perhaps there is a bit of an over-representation of some groups, there are a few instanced where I personally would have dropped a demo or two for those groups that have like five or more included and given some other group a spot.
However I think that the demos included do show off quite a bit of the different styles of scene.
You can't include everything just because someone, somewhere might enjoy it.
To draw a parallel - say you were to put together a collection of 'good movies'. You would then include some nice action flicks, some comedies and a couple of dramas perhaps.
If then some artsy-fartsy types start going 'but oh why didn't you include the black-and-white documentary about knitting in Ukraine or that wonderful 8-hour movie of someone sleeping shot with one static camera - those movies are TRUE ART!!one!!1' you probably best ignore them... :)
I say stick with the blockbusters!
Sdw: Fuck you dude, Ukrainian b/w knitting ROXX!!!!11eleven ;)
"It's supposed to be grey with occasional glowing outline, just like in kahvi video." -- Okay, the WinXP capture is like that, so we've got a good one.
@trace: "Plus, that will drain the bitrate available for other demos. So glowing white hot version will go into mindcandy 3." -- no, *real* version will go into mindcandy 3. Hopefully you were being sarcastic. Also, there are some demos for which no DVD bitrate (even 9800 without audio) can reproduce properly without compression artifacts, so all the "noise" demos don't bother me. 99% of the DVD will look great and 1% of it will have compression artifacts and there's nothing I can do about that. The blu-ray will look great, of course.
@marq: We were worried about the mfx+asd+fr stuff when we were putting together the playlist as well, but we really did debate on a lot of stuff and give everything a lot of thought.
@dominator: Thank you for writing so much to illustrate your point. Believe it or not, I agree with you, but we had to swing the playlist to be somewhat mainstream so that we can sell enough to make volume 4. If 3 does well enough, we might have volume 4 be 100% scener's choice/votes or similar, so that very eclectic tastes or "dark corners" of the scene get their say as well.
MC1 did very well, so we got to do MC2 Amiga which is dear to my heart. I put a ton of time into retouching the original analog Amiga video on MC2, I really put blood into it. But it was a scener-only product, and didn't sell as well. MC3 needs to appeal to a broader audience to sell, and then I promise you MC4 will be a scener product again :-) MC3 is a scener product too, but hopefully you understand my point.
BTW, I personally fought for STS-02. Reminds me of the fucking good old days, and was also one of the few demos to have 100% rock-solid dead-on music sync to the visuals. Call me oldskool, I don't care, the tune fucking rox and I wanted it on there.
@marq: We were worried about the mfx+asd+fr stuff when we were putting together the playlist as well, but we really did debate on a lot of stuff and give everything a lot of thought.
@dominator: Thank you for writing so much to illustrate your point. Believe it or not, I agree with you, but we had to swing the playlist to be somewhat mainstream so that we can sell enough to make volume 4. If 3 does well enough, we might have volume 4 be 100% scener's choice/votes or similar, so that very eclectic tastes or "dark corners" of the scene get their say as well.
MC1 did very well, so we got to do MC2 Amiga which is dear to my heart. I put a ton of time into retouching the original analog Amiga video on MC2, I really put blood into it. But it was a scener-only product, and didn't sell as well. MC3 needs to appeal to a broader audience to sell, and then I promise you MC4 will be a scener product again :-) MC3 is a scener product too, but hopefully you understand my point.
BTW, I personally fought for STS-02. Reminds me of the fucking good old days, and was also one of the few demos to have 100% rock-solid dead-on music sync to the visuals. Call me oldskool, I don't care, the tune fucking rox and I wanted it on there.
My thought is, a compilation of very experimental/noise demos shouldn't be marketed as a pc demo compilation at all, but rather as "experimental computer art" in general. there's no point in boasting about productions like kolonija as being "realtime", so you may as well mix them in with other animations. that being said, there would be some good crossover potential in combining scene and non-scene productions onto one disc.
My thought is, a compilation of very experimental/noise demos shouldn't be marketed as a pc demo compilation at all, but rather as "experimental computer art" in general. there's no point in boasting about productions like kolonija as being "realtime", so you may as well mix them in with other animations. that being said, there would be some good crossover potential in combining scene and non-scene productions onto one disc.
(sorry for the dupe post)
Regarding many demos by the same group on vol 3, yes, but we were still looking for a variety of styles, and FR, ASD, and MFX have done a variety. In fact, I almost kicked out Iconoclast, as good as it is, because it seemed a lot like Lifeforce. Trixter and Dan talked me out of it. :)
And I have to disagree with Trixter about MC1 and MC3 being "mainstream" and MC2 being "scener-only". MC1 was split between two concepts, but all three volumes are what we consider "best-of"/"greatest hits" for the years included. We were just less picky with Windows-era demos in MC1 because we really only had around 3 years of demos to look at.
Trixter: Trace was mocking one of my previous comments. He's still bitter about Kolonija.
Regarding many demos by the same group on vol 3, yes, but we were still looking for a variety of styles, and FR, ASD, and MFX have done a variety. In fact, I almost kicked out Iconoclast, as good as it is, because it seemed a lot like Lifeforce. Trixter and Dan talked me out of it. :)
And I have to disagree with Trixter about MC1 and MC3 being "mainstream" and MC2 being "scener-only". MC1 was split between two concepts, but all three volumes are what we consider "best-of"/"greatest hits" for the years included. We were just less picky with Windows-era demos in MC1 because we really only had around 3 years of demos to look at.
Trixter: Trace was mocking one of my previous comments. He's still bitter about Kolonija.
Well, they seem to have worked out as alternating :-) even if it wasn't the intention at the time.
I have dreams of a C64 volume, a Wild only volume, a "best of 8-bit" volume, an "every platform ever" volume (ie. 100 different platforms from speccy to 2600 to gameboy to ps3 to dreamcast to...etc.) and many other ideas... as Daredevil said, I just wish Real Life(tm) wouldn't get in the way.
I have dreams of a C64 volume, a Wild only volume, a "best of 8-bit" volume, an "every platform ever" volume (ie. 100 different platforms from speccy to 2600 to gameboy to ps3 to dreamcast to...etc.) and many other ideas... as Daredevil said, I just wish Real Life(tm) wouldn't get in the way.
Bah, forget about those, everybody needs the BITS ANTHOLOGY, the complete and unabridged works of Herman Solo.
mfx guys: we're having trouble getting a kkapture of aether that matches the end part with the slow moving particle object in the kahvi video. Trixter is getting a glowing object, and I am getting a reddish ground instead of glowing yellow ground, and two camera angles instead of 1. can you contact us at trixter a-la oldskool.org and xprojected a-la yahoo.com? i have 2 radeon 4850s and xp, and he has (i think) a gtx260 and xp/vista.
Also, if anyone has navis' contact info, I'd like to talk to him about the possibility of a higher-res Iconoclast.
I'll just put it this way:
I've already seen this DVD/Blu-Ray at the scene.org awards, so even if I had the money to buy it, I woudln't bother.
I've already seen this DVD/Blu-Ray at the scene.org awards, so even if I had the money to buy it, I woudln't bother.
fuck yeah, that'll motivate them.
