pouët.net

There has been some discussion on the mac.scene.org forums after breakpoint had announced that mac demos will not be allowed to compete against pc demos in a combined compo at breakpoint.

There were a lot of misunderstandings in the discussion, but as far as I've been able to figure out, this is the status:

If there are more than three mac demos, a special mac demo compo will be held.

Great.

I would like to code demos for mac, but I don't feel very motivated to do so if it means having to compete in a second-rate compo that nobody will watch.

A lot of other parties already have combined compos, and when it comes to mac and pc the platforms are really comparable.

When I talked to scamp (bp organizer), he told me that I should be willing to release a mac demo in the wild compo or a special mac compo in order to prove that the mac can be taken seriously.

I don't think I should have to prove anything.

What do you think? Should demo parties have platform-based compos (pc compo, amiga compo etc.), or hardware class-based compos (high-end, low-end etc) where equivalent platforms can coexist? Would you be disappointed if there were mac demos in the main demo compo at breakpoint?

I wouldn't be. Just go ahead. Dunno if the orgas will do it though...
I don't know if MAC and PC are quite comparable in terms of performance, but why not do a combined PC/MAC-Compo? If your demo will be bad, people probably will notice ;-)
But how would you rate high/low/whatever-end machines with completely different architectures like C64/Amiga/PC/...?! So I think it makes sense to have C64, Amiga, PC/MAC, Console compos...
IMHO

just show them on the pc compo and put something on the bigscreen saying its mac ffs

In general my opinion is that I do *NOT* like any of those combined democompos already existing at other parties!

I really dislike this idea. At least at the _current_ time we've got here with hardware/software and everything else in the scene so far!

It's simply *not* fair for any side to pack every demo-release into ONE whole 'combined' demo-compo...whereas you can find PC-demos competing against amiga-demos against c64-demos !!!

How fair can THAT be!?
It's NOT!

As every scene (like PC, amiga and c64) surely deserves to compete against _eachother_ on the same level then!

A c64 demo would NEVER have smallest chance to win a demo-compo if it's a combined one (of course!?)...

But the _effort_ put into such a product is surely adoreable if it's an outstanding work!
But who of the PC(-only) and other sceners would either fully understand what they are really watching there on the big screen if they never had a c64 for themeselves nor would _vote_ such a prod onto #1 place if there are any other 3D-multimedia-great-stereo-sound-hardcore-effects-blast-away demos on e.g. amiga or PC in the same compo then?

Therefore and for some more reasons I won't write down here today anymore - as it's already too late here now! ;-) - I would _definitely_ vote *AGAINST* a combined compo for _any_ party also for the (near) future then!

Concerning the PC&mac compo...I would think similar here as well...although it's maybe the _only_ machine-base where I would say that they can be more equal than any other platforms!

BUT: The argument about _fairness_ and respect to the creators of such a prod on a particular plattform which will vanish lots more if it is 'combined' is still there!
And therefore I'd vote for _platform-based_ also in future!

Everyone need to get a REAL chance to become #1 in the results with his work on _his_ specific platform!!

Bye,
Weasel

...just my (oldschoolish) 2 cents... ;-)

If now mac is "inferior" and they want to compete with PC why not? Time will tell if a mac demo will beat a pc demo.. Im not saying that mac is inferior, I do belive the hardware for mac and pc are quite equal today... so its a lame excuse to not showing a well done mac demo in a compo for "pc" (personal computer.. I do think mac is a personal computer too..) just beacuse "its unfair bla bla".

Blah. I should sleep.

With regards to showing Mac & pc demos in same compo, there is no reason why they shouldn't IMO. If the demos were shown without any hint of what OS they were running on then of course any demo would have an even chance of winning. But if it was announced as a Mac demo, then pc(the gaming gimps who attend as opposed to the real Sceners) owners making up the majority of the crowd we just immediately dismiss it instead of voting accordingly.
Combined compos would be great, but you can't guarentee that all voters will vote based on each prods merits and understand what limits it's hardware puts upon it.
You only have to look at the Pouet top10 to know that 99% of them aren't even a scratch on many Amiga demos.

One difference with mac/pc compared to pc/amiga 10 years ago is that the pc and the amiga were inherently different architectures. Amiga guys could say "fuck you, fear my 1337 blitter routines and copperlists! Only amiga makes it possible" while pc guys went "oh yeah? I can do texturemapping!"

Separating mac and pc just results in:
mac: "Fear my 1337 radeon9600 shaders!"
pc: "Uh.. fear _my_ 1337 radeon9600 shaders more!"

It's not like mac coders should have to prove that cool things can be done on a mac..

In case anyone is wondering.. the "mac sceners" who are bitching about this are not newbies who've just discovered you can do plasmas on an iBook.. we are mainly people with a pc background who don't like to be downgraded to a my-name-is-Guybrush-Threepwood-and-I-want-to-be-a-might-pirate level just because we want to make demos for other platforms... That's why we don't respond very well to arguments like "hey, the pc scene had to prove itself before it was accepted too... now it's your turn"

(That's not relevant to this current discussion I know:
If combined demos competitions are not "fair" to the "oldschool" demos, it would not be because of hardware platform differences, but because most "oldschool" demos aren't good enough to compete beyond their hardware platform. I believe it's really being unfair to the voters to think they would not recognize a good demo even if it was made on an old piece of hardware.. just take a look at the alternative party competitions)

Hardware class compos make a lot more sense. (And have been done quite a few times already) But Breakpoint certainly is a special case in the sense that since quite a few years there are a *lot* of entiries. By the way, will pegasos demos be accepted in the compos? Should ppc amigas with graphic cards still have competed with 060 amigas in the past?

"A c64 demo would NEVER have smallest chance to win a demo-compo if it's a combined one (of course!?)..."

*cough*

Simulaatio2003:

1. Pikku G Force by britelite of Dekadence (c64)
2. Fr-034 Hjb-104 Time Index by Visualice of Farb-Rausch (pc)

okay it's 64k...

zoom, uh. that was a namevote. who is this visualice anyway?

I think a combined Mac/PC compo is just fine.
Perhaps Amiga PPC (with 3d hardware) can compete in the same class aswell.
Heck, in some cases even AGA Amigas competed against PCs (and won: Lapsuus).
Perhaps XBox could compete in the same compo aswell. They are all very similar in terms of features and performance.

So yes, I like the idea of having compos based on performance/feature levels, rather than strict hardware classes (I even wanted some kind of 'oldskool' platform, for eg 486-PCs, so you get demos similar to the Amiga AGA demos still made). I think it should be the choice of the creators anyway, in what compo their demo should compete, not of the organizers. But there have to be some rules ofcourse.

Perhaps we could take on a Render-To-Texture competition, especially for you!

Combined compos would be great if all the voters were aware of the platform limits etc (which it seems they are at some parties, not at others). Where that's not going to work i think hardware-class compos are the best way to go. After all, pcs and macs now have similar cpu speeds, similar amount of ram, same gfx cards... Perhaps the best way would be to combine windows, linux, and mac in one compo, as none of them would have any serious advantage over the other.

For older machines, its probably better to separate by platform where it's possible, as the hardware isn't usually comparable. If there's not enough entries, separating into 8bit or 16bit could work ok.

But ppc amigas i'm not too sure on, they seem to fall somewhere between all the others, so i guess they could go almost anywhere.

who cares about the results anyway?

Ur, what are you arguing about? The difference between Mac and PC is not larger than difference between PC Windows and PC Linux... so why not let them compete? The machines are really equivalent enough!

About the Xbox being in the same class - well, performance and programmer interface-wise it is, but... it's still a game console, which is not an alone-standing computer, but a slave device, and it even requieres hardware modification to program on it... And while it is probably not as hard to work with as with other game consoles - just take it, they aren't made equal. Face it: if Xbox were made compete in PC compo, noone would code for it. Low competitiveness of demos done on Xbox can only be fought by making better console demos. :>

Plek rocks.

Also, pc + mac + console in 1 compo.

which reminds me of several people who were fighting to stop forcing computers doing slave-work like mpeg decoding... :)
But otherwise right: XBOX belongs the console compo.
And if Mac users are brave (foolish?) enough to compete in the PC compo, why restrict'em?

I usually don't like combined compos, but Pc+Mac wouldn't really mind. They're absolutely similar (Apple implementation of OpenGL is even better) so why not? If a Mac prod is recognized as a demo by everyone, the demo compo is its place.
So, welcome Mac in the club ;)

If the problem is in getting the hw, an option would be the 'else, bring your own hw' in Buenzli style, but probably can't be done on BP, which is so bigger. You simply can't let everyone mess with the beamer.

In the end, I just point out how - when compos include every platform - oldschool ones win for nostalgic votes regardless of quality. mho of course.

combined compos were allways useless coz of the differences but as pc and mac are more or less equal it wouldnt even care.
but the point is that there isnt much activity on the mac and its quite questionable if there would be really at least one entry. so providing a extra compo machine (and we all know how expensive those apple stuff is) just for the vage possibillity of a mac release would be abit to much.

anyway if you want more respect for your holy mac then release something and maybe ppl will do mac compos.

beside of this .. the wildcompo is still open for exotic hardware

combined compos were allways useless coz of the differences but as pc and mac are more or less equal it wouldnt even care.
but the point is that there isnt much activity on the mac and its quite questionable if there would be really at least one entry. so providing a extra compo machine (and we all know how expensive those apple stuff is) just for the vage possibillity of a mac release would be abit to much.

anyway if you want more respect for your holy mac then release something and maybe ppl will do mac compos.

beside of this .. the wildcompo is still open for exotic hardware

Slave not in the sense of slave work, but in the sense of being not autonomic. There are exceptions among consoles though, e.g. PS2 with Linux is already and a Dreamcast with Harddisk and FreeBSD or Linux could soon become atonomic. Although i don't think that on devices with such limited resources this makes sense. Programming in slave mode helps use up the hardware better, except on PCs/Macs/AmigaOne where a heavyweight OS is always loaded, and development tools need not impose significant further overhead.

So, what we have: Different OSes, but that's what we also have on PC; Same graphics gear, on all three including AmigaOne. Different CPUs. There's so little asssembly coding anyway, so that doesn't matter these days. If the fans of such hardware want to promote it though demoscene, i believe they may - that's what is done e.g. with consoles so why not with personal computers?

But i would say pushing them back into the wild compo is too humiliating. If they shoudn't be in the PC compo, the console compo could be renamed into "non-orthodox hw compo" - since that's what it actually is, oganizers and calculators have long been accepted in them, and then also make them accept Mac demos - i believe this would be a much fairer cometition that against home videos and prerendered movies. And console compo has never been too crowded anyway.

btw, this would shut off the discussion on equivalence of hardware, since no 2 devices in console compo are equivalent.

For apple people it should be bring-their-own anyway. Just as it has been with consoles.

Mac and PC in the same compos? I'm all for it.

So let me get this straight, you're not expecting the common compo watcher to give the mac a fair game on it's own, so you'd rather compete with the "big" boys and get laughed at some more?

Sorry, it reads like you *like* to be singled out and ridiculed.