pouët.net

I want to ask why so many demos stick to the same old bland formula - effect after effect or another 3d flybye that looks like all others?

I can understand when the demo team is highly talented cos these demos let them show off new advancements or new designs, but why do all the newbies keep making inferior clones?

Eg. What's the point in making another Hjb style demo with poor gfx, slow effects and crap music? Why not use your limited talents to do something innovative and original. It might not look great but it will be different.

Budbrain, Animators and newer groups like Insomnia have the right idea. And this is what we try to do with our demos.

This isn't another slag off all demos thread I'm just saying there's things we can all do to make our releases stand out even if we don't have the technical skills.

Ok, sorry if I don't get this but atleast they made their own slow effects.
By using demopaja without adding any own plug-in's and then saying that Haujobb is equal too crap sounds a bit weird for me.

no no I'm not saying Haujobb are crap just the people who try to copy them and do it badly.

I'm saying if you can't do it as good as them, why bother? Do something different instead.

ok. My mistake. :)
Even if people aren't doing things quite as good as their inspirations I still think that it's up to that group to release it anyway. If everyone always was forced to take demos/intros/whatever to a new level then I don't think people would enjoy this quite as much. Makin' crap is still funny! ;)
Design and ideas and inspiration is so individual so productions will always be different. Ok, Budbrain was funny but making a budbrain copy bad will be hundred times worse than making a haujobb copy bad. Bad humour, and bad poetry ruins more then anything else.
This kind of thread will not lead to anything creative what so ever because people will still be making what they like. That's why people are here, to do what they like! Or atleast, that's what I think. ;)

I suggest we keep doing the same stuff we have been doing for 15 years. I like it this way..

Im going to give a speech about the demoscene next friday at an artist matchmaking here in norway. I guess we'll talk about scene history, introduce the limitations concept and then show some old sinescroller stuff, then we'll introduce the convergence towards arty fartyness and show some new stuff like IX, deepness in the sky, variform etc.

These arty people Ive been talking to are all for making something new all the time using the computer. Seldom they have any technical skills at all and they stand there shaking and shivering over some simple 3d model and boasts about its characteristics and amazing expression.

They seem to be interested in doing cooperation projects with sceners aswell, but I dont think I want to cooperate on creating something new and revolutionary BECAUSE I WANT IT ALL TO BE THE FUCKING SAME FOR ALL BLOODY ETERNITY!! :) Thats a natural attitude for an amiga coder. If I wanted to learn new stuff, I'd code on pc. Learning new stuff is bothersome and is best done only when you are forced to or if you get money from learning it.. so there..hmm.. slightly moronic this text but that won't stop me from hitting the submit button.

I agree very much with ekoli.

We're supposed to have fun. Oh, and IX, deepness in the sky and variform are great demos btw. The text above gives the impression that I think they are bad :)

i agree with my fart

Maybe Budbrain clones would get boring after a while, but why copy anything at all? Why don't sceners use their imagination more? There's a limit to how many times you can watch 3d objects being rotated before getting bored, but if there's some kind of plot or individuality the same ideas can be made entertaining.

Loaderror: I think a lot of sceners think this way, but you have the talent to do these things in an interesting way. But if you took away your talent and released your demos with slower effects and poor design no one would want to watch them, you wouldn't feel proud and so what would be the point?

That's how it is for me and people like me. I could TRY to make a traditional scene demo, but it would be shit because I lack the talent to do it well, so it would be no fun. So I just do what the hell I want like things that make me laugh or something that makes a point.

Sometimes I get ideas from sitting around thinking or talking to someone, or I have a weird dream and I think about how to share these ideas with others and how to make it into a demo. That's fun and I think lots of people would find it fun to give form to their own imagination, but instead they spend time staring at code or placing pixels down on the screen.

I have total respect for these people, but is it really fun? Or is the end result worth the hard work and years of training?

It is fun, but never worth it.. Could have concentrated on getting chicks and money instead..

Remember, all those ideas that suddenly spring into mind as amazingly clever usually dwindles just as fast when faced with the tools at hand and the requirement of working with other people who cant see the pictures inside your brain..

Its a bit like having a great melody in your head played by some kind of morphing delicious and warm string sound, but when you sit down to compose it, you find that you have only st00 percussion samples on your hd which makes it impossible to make.

The best idea is to look at what your tools are and do what is possible with them. That is.. the material you have should suggest stuff to your brain, not the other way around.. or something ;)

The demoscene is no different from any music, literature, or whatever scene. Many generic clones with a few instances of pure inspiration. It's always been this way, always will. Human nature, blah blah blah...

well, i'd say that people have to learn to obey the "rules of design" in order to break them in an interresting manner. that said, it's not like you have to make 436262456 demos to learn them.

however, i think there is a huge wave of people thinking different in the scene. it's not any longer like it was in 95 when you expected envmapped spikeballs, fd-tunnels, some semi-naked chick-pixels and a way too happy colorscheme in a winner-demo.

(envmapped spikeballs rule, though)

my pillow and me think you are all right
my pillow is wonderfulllllll

Effect-after-effect is still, and will always be, the easiest way of making demos.

Also, if you've coded a cool effect or drawn a cool image, you don't really want to ruin it by hyper kewl overdraw design bullshit, but you just put in the screen and SHOW IT OFF. As simple as that.

Why do people copy others ?
When iNSOMNia started, we were doing effect-after-effect demos (Phoby, Shallow, Hypochonder) using standard effects like FD-tunnel, EnvMapped shit and so on we saw in other demos which we liked. So we tried to do the same effects to test our skills. Then we were just playing with them, changeing some parameters, textures, combining them and if we found something we liked, we used it in a demo. It's like when you are a kid and someone has a toy and you wanna the same toy, but a lot better ;-)
But then we got bored with this, cause we have seen plenty demos with same effects. So we tried something, which would have at least an atmosphere.
Maybe you should give the newbies some time to grow up and someday they will surprise you with a demo of your taste :)

Putting your dreams in demos ?
Sure you are limited by the tools and your skills. But to overcome these limits is the interresting part of the creation. And surprisingly, you can even use the limits to your advantage. Like in our demo Moments. Lack of time and knowledge was the reason we could not move the figures. So they stood still and we designed the scenes and camera to raise the tension.

I kinda agree and risagree with Loaderror at the same time.

It depends on you whether you want to do.
- Try to do what's in your head, regardless of the tools, and code/compose/draw as long as you're not sartisfied, and the end product is as close to the original "dream" as possible.
- Stick to the stuff you already have (tools, musics, effects, etc.) and try to make your mind go and figure out some l33t combination of it.

It's not impossible to do some kind of a "mix" of both tho, trying to "trace" your original idea with existing stuff". (You'll most likely start thinking with your toolset anyway)

I think the demo's quality is independent on the fact whether you want new stuff or not, it's just the "way" you show it :)

Wow, a serious reply in a thread started by Gayne.. I thought the day would never come. :)

Anyways; The point that people keep missing ... well.. isn't it obvious? It's not just in the demoscene, in fact - it's everywhere.. People getting interessted in something want to copy their masters - it's the natural thing to do, since you like their work so much, you want to be like them. Every newbie-group I've ever encountered did this the first couple of releases before they developed their own style, and I think it will continue to be like this for ever.

i agree though, many groups never develop their own style :)

gloom>You're right. That's the whole point. But the reason, why people copy other people may be different. Some do it because they like the 'original', others because they think other people will like them like the 'original'. Or both :)

I think inte so varst nojd 2003 by Monochrome demonstrates my point pretty well.

I can understand why people do try to copy their masters. It's the obvious first step, but what it comes down to is that nobody can really appreciate a poor imitation when they can see the real thing instead.

Like why would anyone want to keep the above demo by Monochrome when they have Liquid Wen?

I don't mean this to sound like I'm slagging off Monochrome. They coded their own demo which is more than I've ever done, but they could have used their talents to make something that stands out.

if you follow a style made by others, your creativity is dead.
and so are you.

Oh, for fuck's sake... just get happily drunk, gather some friends and play with your code, gfx and beat. The result will be either crap or gold, but you had some good time in both cases.

and yeah, envmapped spikeballs should be everywhere, even with 1% alpha blend which can make them subliminal.

word up to dixan!

*CLICK* *CLACK*

ARGH! That referee gives me nightmares.