iPhone demo me beautiful
category: general [glöplog]
oh and
that's just not true. the only party that i know that couldn't really do without such sponsorship is breakpoint. or maybe asm, i don't know much about that. most smaller parties are entirely self-sufficient except maybe for a beer sponsor company because half the <country of party> scene works at that company. quality has never been at stake here, maybe size, but not quality.
breakpoint is expensive also because it's in an unusual venue, on an unusual time, in the middle of a city. if all sponsors pull out, and maybe that would cause bp to end, then what will stop others from finding a place, somewhere rather centrally in europe, that has sufficient features and can host the same large crowd, for less money?
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while i suspect youve recently taken the sleeper train to planet loony, there is one vaguely related problem that we could consider: a lot of major (and less major) demoparties rely on sponsorship and involvement from a small number of big hw manufacturers. if that ever dries up, it's going to be a lot harder to achieve the same level of quality that we currently enjoy with demoparties. there's something to be said for self-sufficiency.
that's just not true. the only party that i know that couldn't really do without such sponsorship is breakpoint. or maybe asm, i don't know much about that. most smaller parties are entirely self-sufficient except maybe for a beer sponsor company because half the <country of party> scene works at that company. quality has never been at stake here, maybe size, but not quality.
breakpoint is expensive also because it's in an unusual venue, on an unusual time, in the middle of a city. if all sponsors pull out, and maybe that would cause bp to end, then what will stop others from finding a place, somewhere rather centrally in europe, that has sufficient features and can host the same large crowd, for less money?
skrebbel: pretty easy. salary of 90-100,000$ a year (around £45-50k including bonuses etc - about right for an "experienced" employee) and you always x2 the salary to cover the workplace and benefits costs (pensions, healthcare, dental, any work-required travel, and all the associated equipment the guys need) - that's the standard formula. :)
btw, those figures were from the costs of an actual team budgeted by an actual company, not pulled out of the air. :)
skrebbel: thats what i mean - large parties like bp and asm do rely a lot on sponsorship.
Hyde: Rhino's ass.
And I am _SO_ getting a shirt with that on it. Hmm. Maybe a tattoo.
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That said: It's MY demo. The second someone is paying me for it, it's no longer MY demo. It's THEIR demo.
This is the problem with this $10k iphone demo situation; there is a great possibility it will no longer be fun, due to not being able to do whatever _YOU_ want with it. That changes it to 'work' which, in turn, can easily turn into indentured servitude. Which is different from Slavery in that aren't owned by anyone, but sucks identically to it in all other ways.
This is what Smash has brought up, and it's stated in the rule - make demos YOU want.
So yes. Make demos that YOU want. Don't sacrifice your creativity or talent or time for someone who doesn't share your values. If you need money, say because you're unable to get to Sundown without severe issues and get trapped at Düsseldorf, consider the amount of your freedom that you're selling and the price that you want for it. $10k isn't the worst amount, but if the amount of freedom you spend on it is worth a million to you...
And remember, no matter how difficult things are, there are always options other than indentured servitude.
I still applaud any efforts to make a kickass demo on the Iphone/Ipod Touch. Or Rush Hour III/NextEmpire with a Saulin Penis cracktro.
I am just wary of anyone offering money. I mean, you get money involved, contracts come out, and suddenly you have lawyers swarming all over the place... and YOU HAVE NO RIFLE AND CANNOT SHOOT THE LAWYERS. _IN THE FACE._
In other words: What Smash said. What Havok said. What Hyde said. What has already been said. A lot. Before this post was ever made.
And I am _SO_ getting a shirt with that on it. Hmm. Maybe a tattoo.
---
That said: It's MY demo. The second someone is paying me for it, it's no longer MY demo. It's THEIR demo.
This is the problem with this $10k iphone demo situation; there is a great possibility it will no longer be fun, due to not being able to do whatever _YOU_ want with it. That changes it to 'work' which, in turn, can easily turn into indentured servitude. Which is different from Slavery in that aren't owned by anyone, but sucks identically to it in all other ways.
This is what Smash has brought up, and it's stated in the rule - make demos YOU want.
So yes. Make demos that YOU want. Don't sacrifice your creativity or talent or time for someone who doesn't share your values. If you need money, say because you're unable to get to Sundown without severe issues and get trapped at Düsseldorf, consider the amount of your freedom that you're selling and the price that you want for it. $10k isn't the worst amount, but if the amount of freedom you spend on it is worth a million to you...
And remember, no matter how difficult things are, there are always options other than indentured servitude.
I still applaud any efforts to make a kickass demo on the Iphone/Ipod Touch. Or Rush Hour III/NextEmpire with a Saulin Penis cracktro.
I am just wary of anyone offering money. I mean, you get money involved, contracts come out, and suddenly you have lawyers swarming all over the place... and YOU HAVE NO RIFLE AND CANNOT SHOOT THE LAWYERS. _IN THE FACE._
In other words: What Smash said. What Havok said. What Hyde said. What has already been said. A lot. Before this post was ever made.
smash: I agree with what you're saying really.
My thinking is just that there's two extremes (the ideal: getting paid to make your own demo in your own time, which I think anyone would think is great; and the 'cynical view': you get paid peanuts to make an advert for some company). And then there's reality which is always going to be somewhere in the middle. It all comes down to whereabouts in the middle it falls.. if it's near the ideal, then low pay can be acceptable, if it's at the other end, it's paid work pure and simple.
It's always going to be down to the individual of course.. for me, I'm actually doing stuff that would come in at the 'cynical' end, but that's fine because i'm not treating that as demomaking in any way, but just fun work. And I'd like to do a lot more of that work. For demo stuff, I'd only consider anything right at the ideal end, otherwise i'll continue doing the 'work for free' thing :)
My thinking is just that there's two extremes (the ideal: getting paid to make your own demo in your own time, which I think anyone would think is great; and the 'cynical view': you get paid peanuts to make an advert for some company). And then there's reality which is always going to be somewhere in the middle. It all comes down to whereabouts in the middle it falls.. if it's near the ideal, then low pay can be acceptable, if it's at the other end, it's paid work pure and simple.
It's always going to be down to the individual of course.. for me, I'm actually doing stuff that would come in at the 'cynical' end, but that's fine because i'm not treating that as demomaking in any way, but just fun work. And I'd like to do a lot more of that work. For demo stuff, I'd only consider anything right at the ideal end, otherwise i'll continue doing the 'work for free' thing :)
skrebbel: Actually, I think both Solskogen and Kindergarden would be quite a bit harder to make happen if it wasn't for ARM's yearly sponsorship ("ARM Norway - Your Premium Slengpung Material Supplier Since 2005!"). :)
Also; I would like to mention again what I said a few pages back, since it seems to get lost in the "OMG!? DEMOS FOR MONEYYYHH??!"-rants: there is something to be said for having at least the _option_ to make some money while doing something that is related to your hobby. If nothing else, it is a completely legitimate way to get some cash, which is hard enough for quite a few sceners. Think of it this way: you spend a few evenings creating your pitch-proposal and applying for the iPhone Developer registration. If you're chosen, you get $3000 instantly, which is enough to buy a _BADASS_ new Mac. You spend two months on the demo, and then you get another $3000 for your work (which, accidentally is about the same as a monthly pay of a normal part-time job here in Norway), and then you're done.
They send it to the App Store for approval. If it gets through; fantastic - another $4000 - your sucky part-time pay for the two previous months suddenly jumped to a quite decent full-time pay.
..and now? Now you have a brand new, really ace computer which you can use to create new demos (OSX demos PLEASE! :) and perhaps even better: you have the tools and experience to create more demos, featuring penises, cubes or whatever your heart may desire. Or; you also have just created a speedway into the App Store, so now you can start making some more cash if you felt the experience with the "demo making" was pleasant enough. Whatever you want to do - total freedom.
I guess the point is.. sure, you can choose to live under bridges and snort glue to NOT COMPROMISE TEH ARTTTTT!!!!1111, or you can accept aid when aid is given, and use it for what it is worth. :)
Also; I would like to mention again what I said a few pages back, since it seems to get lost in the "OMG!? DEMOS FOR MONEYYYHH??!"-rants: there is something to be said for having at least the _option_ to make some money while doing something that is related to your hobby. If nothing else, it is a completely legitimate way to get some cash, which is hard enough for quite a few sceners. Think of it this way: you spend a few evenings creating your pitch-proposal and applying for the iPhone Developer registration. If you're chosen, you get $3000 instantly, which is enough to buy a _BADASS_ new Mac. You spend two months on the demo, and then you get another $3000 for your work (which, accidentally is about the same as a monthly pay of a normal part-time job here in Norway), and then you're done.
They send it to the App Store for approval. If it gets through; fantastic - another $4000 - your sucky part-time pay for the two previous months suddenly jumped to a quite decent full-time pay.
..and now? Now you have a brand new, really ace computer which you can use to create new demos (OSX demos PLEASE! :) and perhaps even better: you have the tools and experience to create more demos, featuring penises, cubes or whatever your heart may desire. Or; you also have just created a speedway into the App Store, so now you can start making some more cash if you felt the experience with the "demo making" was pleasant enough. Whatever you want to do - total freedom.
I guess the point is.. sure, you can choose to live under bridges and snort glue to NOT COMPROMISE TEH ARTTTTT!!!!1111, or you can accept aid when aid is given, and use it for what it is worth. :)
Oh, and of course it is true what has also been said: accepting commission for doing something makes it WORK > FUN, and that should not be ignored. But then again, life consists mainly of doing boring things to enable you to experience the fun things, so whatever. :)
smash, hmm ok i never knew gamedev was such a well paid position :)
makes sense though, i guess the good guys arent so easy to find at all.
makes sense though, i guess the good guys arent so easy to find at all.
gloom, but both solskogen and kindergarden have very low entrance fees. if they'd be 10 euros more, people would still come. i can't imagine ARM gives you more than 10 euros a person.
i very much like Outline for a showcase: no sponsorship, 45e for 4 days, bed and breakfast included. granted, in exchange the bigscreen isn't really very big and there's not really a network, but that's just a matter of choice, mostly.
i very much like Outline for a showcase: no sponsorship, 45e for 4 days, bed and breakfast included. granted, in exchange the bigscreen isn't really very big and there's not really a network, but that's just a matter of choice, mostly.
skrebbel: They don't (though it's close to that, for Solskogen at least - KG gets the same amount but has less attendees, so that's more "per head" if you want to calculate it that way :) and yes, a price increase could be done of course. Speaking for Solskogen though, we've had the same entry price for the last three parties, and I hope we can continue to do so because it makes it a bit more accessible for people to just go "Oh well, it's only €30, I'll pop by on saturday", which as it turns out, is a really nice thing for a summer party. :)
But I'm not going to say that small parties are doomed without sponsors of course, because that is rubbish, but it sure helps. Again, with Solskogen, getting the ARM sponsorship means that the crew doesn't have to front the cash for renting the venue and purchasing the BBQ supplies out of their own pockets, which is hugely convenient, because nobody wants a dark cloud of "possible going in the red" hanging over them while trying to make sure others are having a great time.
But I'm not going to say that small parties are doomed without sponsors of course, because that is rubbish, but it sure helps. Again, with Solskogen, getting the ARM sponsorship means that the crew doesn't have to front the cash for renting the venue and purchasing the BBQ supplies out of their own pockets, which is hugely convenient, because nobody wants a dark cloud of "possible going in the red" hanging over them while trying to make sure others are having a great time.
skrebbel: yep, see how videogames companies burn so much money.. :) i guess im talking about a team of people with a lot of experience working for a decent-sized company, you could get some graduates for under half that. :) or outsource to india! if you were doing something on your own for your own purposes youd cost it based on what you need to live, which is a bit different to what it costs a big company.
besides, compared to same-level coding jobs in most other industries (e.g. animation, banking) it's actually a lot lower. :) it's probably more that uk salaries are relatively high, in line with our crazy high living costs, than that gamedev salaries are high.
besides, compared to same-level coding jobs in most other industries (e.g. animation, banking) it's actually a lot lower. :) it's probably more that uk salaries are relatively high, in line with our crazy high living costs, than that gamedev salaries are high.
psonice: you seem to see only the positive aspects, because you say you will do demos anyway : but the nightmare will begin as soon as you're hit by a family/health/work/money problem, you'll have to deliver through pain...
that makes me wonder, it is a commonly shared opinion that most books are written under pain or frustration (happy people have nothing to write or dream about ;) and i wonder whether the case is the same for demomakers :]
most coders probably need mind peace to give their best, but what about designers and artists ? aren't they the most challenged and inspired when facing pain or frustration ?
that makes me wonder, it is a commonly shared opinion that most books are written under pain or frustration (happy people have nothing to write or dream about ;) and i wonder whether the case is the same for demomakers :]
most coders probably need mind peace to give their best, but what about designers and artists ? aren't they the most challenged and inspired when facing pain or frustration ?
most demos are made under the pain of a very near deadline.
that's just superefficient stress :p
just for the record: imho a lot of people are saying a lot of wise and stupid things on this thread... but psonice has leading in the practical aspect, if some corporate sponsor offers me $10k to walk to the supermarket in a few minutes from now, i'd be stupid not to take it... coz i'm going there anyway.
i meant *interesting* books ;)
zest: you have to consider risks like that when accepting a contract, and either make sure there's a clause in there that says you can extend the deadline or drop out if something bad happens, or that you're at least being paid enough to cover the risks. Most companies would be pretty understanding anyway, if something like that happened.
Dunno what you're on about with the books thing.. i guess you could say it's true that the best books are written under pain if you have dark taste in books :)
Dunno what you're on about with the books thing.. i guess you could say it's true that the best books are written under pain if you have dark taste in books :)
as long as he doesnt want you to buy him more things you can carry, that is...
gargaj: we have shopping trolleys for such occasions here ;)
you're lurking outside the metaphor.. :D
well, demoscene is about thinking outside the box anyway, isn't it? ;)
seriously tho, i understand the doubts, i experience those too as i've already posted on this thread several times. at the same time, it's appaling to see how much stupidity people pre-suppose in individuals who might choose to enter talks with these people. this kind of zealous closed mindedness is killing the scene, if anything, not a few dollars dropped in by corporate sponsors... we've survived that for 20 years, don't see why we can't do it for another 20 years :)
seriously tho, i understand the doubts, i experience those too as i've already posted on this thread several times. at the same time, it's appaling to see how much stupidity people pre-suppose in individuals who might choose to enter talks with these people. this kind of zealous closed mindedness is killing the scene, if anything, not a few dollars dropped in by corporate sponsors... we've survived that for 20 years, don't see why we can't do it for another 20 years :)
havoc: it's an odd case I reckon. There's sure to be a few idiots who look at this and think "woo! free money!" and nothing more, then rush in head first without considering it further. It's pointless worrying about them though, they're sure to be rejected anyway :)
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Oh, and of course it is true what has also been said: accepting commission for doing something makes it WORK > FUN, and that should not be ignored. But then again, life consists mainly of doing boring things to enable you to experience the fun things, so whatever. :)
that's one of the main points for me. "their world" is 9-5 (regular work hours) and I agree to sacrifice a large portion of my life to their world out of sheer necessity in order to pay bills and also so that I can afford to enjoy my free-time (i also quite enjoy the work I do, but that's besides the point). however "my world", which I consider infinitely more valuable, is in the evenings and weekends (holidays, etc) and the scene is a large part of my free leisure time. i pay dearly for the right to enjoy that leisure time from 9-5.
what's wrong with wanting to preserve that and speaking out against obvious commercial ploys to encroach on the little things we're still able to enjoy in life? and why exactly are you against this idea? your only justification for it all appears to be the opportunity to sell our leisure time at slave-labour rates and non-essential sponsoreship at parties that provide 12ft plasma screens.
Sure, sponsorship has its place. they provide "nice" plasma screens and demoboxes, but those things are not essential to the scene and we would survive _perfectly_ fine without them. but what IS essential to the scene is to maintain a sense of independence and enjoyment because that's the only thing that divides the scene from the type of work most of us do to earn a crust. yes, the scene is sacred in my view, and i don't want to see these guys trample all over it - they have played no role in its construction and have no right.
i guess all i'm really saying (in my own polarized way) is that if we're not careful and don't maintain a wary cynical view of their presence, they WILL takeover. that's not paranoia or being a zealot, that's simply an acute awareness of the nature of commercialism. to think otherwise is nativity.
sure we gotta watch out, but we also have to do that when we cross the road or eat fish...