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Just went through the Dreamhack2003 compo-rules and saw that there is one rule in the 64k intro compo that says that u can use datafiles with your 64k intro.

I think this is wrong somehow.. because most of use have learned that you have all you things in one executable.

I later on talked with the organizers of the scene-area at dreamhack and they told me that the want to make the compo-rules more modern so more ppl can attend in the compos. But it really don't know, isn't this more like a question about tradtion?

what do you think?

btw.. the compo-rules can be found at http://scene.ituf.liu.se/dhscene/main.php?page=competitions&sub=combined64k

Can't...seem...to...care...

I mean, so what if someone wants to use datafiles? It's probably gonna be a sucky intro (although there are exceptions) and if they wanna release it, that's fine by me.

Huh? I think I've never seen 64k compo rules state that
it should be contained in a single excutable. If I had,
I'd probably think something like gee what a retarded
rule and then proceed as usual - one file because it
packs better that way.

Breakpoint 2003 had that rule, in reaction to some compoentry we had at MS2002... one 15MB .tar.gz file with a few thousand files. Contained not only the entry itself (as source code), but the sources all libraries in the exact version the entry required, and we had to compile it on the machine. The result was about 30 files. For some of them it was obvious we could delete 'em, for some it was not so obvious. I deleted the obvious ones (.o files etc), the rest was still over the size limit. I called the author, he told me which files could also be deleted without affecting program execution, he deleted it and we recorded the entry.

The whole procedure cost about one and a half hours and most of my nerves. Afterwards I decided to a) never ever again even consider allowing entries submitted as source code and b) never ever allow any entry for a severely size-limited compo that needs more than one file to execute (I just copy the executable I'm going to start out of the archive and leave the rest unextracted).

This isn't an issue for democompos because a) the sizelimits are far bigger and b) I check the submitted .zips as whole against the file size limit, not the unpacked version.

(So much for the series "pointless rants of a compo organizer")

I've never heared of a rule that you can't use datafiles for an intro. And it doesn't have anything to do with tradition. A few years ago there were many 64k intros with seperate gif or pcx files, I'd say it's only become better since then. But like sagacI think it's rather weird to forbid the use of datafiles.. It's just like _216_ says, I wouldn't recommend using datafiles but it's not really wrong to use them.

The "But like sagac" doesn't make sense, I was trying to paste something in between...

ok, it seams like a really bad idea using an external (outside the executable) datafile but who gives a f**k if someone would like to use it.
And b.t.w, if we don't break our traditions (come on lads, are there actually any?) we will never evolve.

ryg, while not change the rule to refer to the size of the enclosing archive?

"When uploading your entry you will have to supply a complete list of ALL techniques, software and hardware used for the creation and showing of the contribution, to make judgment easier for the audience. (e.g. What hardware the demo runs on, if a PC has been involved in the creation process and then in what way, is the homebuilt platform your own creation etc.) Entries without this will not be accepted. Read more here."


software used for creation: 99 fonts/DG , 2X2 font editor/flt, multi font ed/shape,sprite editor/shape, turbo asm modded by tigers,tass/taboo,level editor/ld, pic converter/tpf, ocp art studio, draz paint/f4cg, xtc packer, cruel cruncher/1way,fli editor/dolphins,rizla+/ld charwandler, art bouncer, colour editor/vikings, levelcrusher/taboo, sinus ed/(B), hisp editor/bml und so weiter..

http://scene.ituf.liu.se/dhscene/main.php?page=competitions&sub=listoftech

well I think it's a good idea (ok maybe because i've already suggested it in the past for mp3 compos)

at least it can't hurt

Hmm, does "shitloads of caffeine" come under techniques uesd?

i can't speak for the other platforms, but for retro productions that's pretty much pointless because using one piece of software doesn't give an advantage over any other; Hollowman uses the FLT 2x2 font editor, i use Small Change's Demon Font Editor but neither gives one or the other of us an advantage.

Before anyone points out that a cross assembler gives a coder an advantage, Crossbow/Crest is one of the best C64 coders going and he works in a monitor... =-)

knos: i think it wouldn't work. then people would start to leave readme files out of the archive to save on space (especially with 4ks :), people would try all kinds of uncommon archive formats to get the best possible compression, many people wouldn't want the submitted zips to be officially released (for example because it's missing readme or a compatible version for 4ks or whatever), etc.

As is, if people really have a problem with the one-file rule or the size limits (be it intros or demos), I just take my USB stick with nasm, upx, winrar and unrarlib on it and show them how to INCBIN their datafiles or pack their data in a .RAR file with easy access. :)

Ryg, indeed.. Though if the archive format is standardized (and it should be) and the rules state that the party archive is going to be released in its form, (as it should be) it shouldn't matter.

But indeed, it's so easy to pack your stuff properly it shouldn't ever be a problem

I always thought that 64k intro means that the *executable and all used datafiles* have not to exceed 64kb. Atleast it was the rule in the golden times of the DOS era and it's still a good rule. I don't see a reason why anyone should be forced to pack all stuff in one exe file (most groups are doing it anyway). The example from ryg is most probably an extreme.

by the way: allowing data files in an intro competition would basically allow supplying an intro with 100000 0-byte datafiles, where everything (grpahics/music/code) is coded into the file-name. If you can code 64 bytes in each filename, with 100000 files you get already 64Mb. Should be enough for your "intro"-data. :)

I think something like this has already been done in some 4k or 256b, whose name I forgot...

hmm. it's only 6,4Mb with 100000 files. Anyway...

i still dont get the example they show with information about a c64 demo, why would i be interested to know if the coder has used a crossassembler or what fonteditor the graphician has used? i've always voted for the demos that i like best, it could be an arty demo or just a bunch of beautiful and impressive effects that made the best impression on me. i wouldnt deduct points because the demomakers have used tools that make things too easy, i've never considered masochism a skill. it's sort of impressive with people like crossbow who code in monitor(although it suits the stuff he does rather good) but i dont think its because of his choise of tools that he's so highly ranked in the charts

i can't see why you would want a datafile for a 64k either. But it shouldn't really be a problem, if the rules say it must be packed in a single zip (say max .5mb or something to allow for window versions, or cross platform or whatever), that it should be able to run from a double click, total of exe + data files is 64kb max, and data files are labelled 001.dat, 002.dat etc.

i can't see the point behind this listoftech thingie. The voting on demo parties always were subjective, and most of the time the more big-screen-friendly, and awe-inspiring ones won, no matter what techniques were used. And this is good.
I don't really give a damn if someone used "copy con program.exe" or msvc n+1, drank a shitload of beer or stay sober, used photoshop, or MSPaint to draw textures as long as the prod is cool. (well wouldn't take that for an excuse either, neither party-coding...)
The only thing it might be good for is that newcomers can get the idea what prods should use if they want to create something similar...

I think supplying a list of all techniques used is a good thing since it might help learn how things were made and give people new ideas on how to create stuff etc..

Spin: that's an awesome idea. Too bad I can't try it now since everyone will be onto me. :)

But there are two easy ways to prevent stuff like that: 1) specify a size limit for both the ZIP file and all included exe/data files (or everything), and 2) give the organizers the right to DQ any entry for what they consider intention of cheating. Many parties do this, although the line between clever tricks and blatant cheats moves a lot.

64k executable. If it needs libs, they must be statically linked and part of that binary. No if's and's or buts. Otherwise enter it in another compo. This should go for any size based compo of course. That's why those linux 4k's are bogus. Compile it with SDL linked and tell me how big it is :P Of course then theres the grey area with acceleration and opengl as well if you mention that, oh fuck it, it's all gone to hell. 4k's using outside libs, demos using mp3's... *sigh* nevermind...

SDL is already installed in most distribution, it can be considered part of the OS somehow..

SDL is NOT a part of linux or X11, it just might be there...or it might not. The fact that it comes with most distros does NOT make it a part of the OS. Using it in 64ks or 4ks is just as silly as using the speech-synth that MIGHT be there in windows. the same goes for freetype, mikmod, and all such librarys. There ARE however ways to directly access the framebuffer, the 3dcard and the soundcard without SDL and similar abstraction-libs, but those ways tend to be clumsy. The fact that linux lacks decent(unless you consider the x11 api decent) standard multimedia APIs (or even standards at all) is quite a good reson not to choose it for this kind of use. I'm not saying intros are impossible on linux, sure... x11 is there for you to use.

EOR
(end of rant)

The list of tech idea is for me a good one, but i think making it compulsory is a bad thing. Forcing groups do give their darkest secrets out? Perhaps it would be better to give a bonus 10 points for prods with some tech info.

Also, the voting on code, gfx + zik at bcn party with separate prizes is a good idea i think, it rewards the makers for doing good stuff in their prods. But i think again there is a problem if there is no 'overall' vote (not sure if there was or not at bcn) as some prods are just so much more than the sum of their parts.

As for using extra files or libs etc in intros, give the orgas power to disqualify prods using stupid cheats like 100,000 files method, run the compo on a standard install of the os + drivers (use a current 'standard' os, i'd say win2k for windows, and a standard current linux distro). People should be free to use whatever they want from the os, and should be able to organise their files how they want (ok, nobody can suggest a good reason to have external data files, doesn't mean no reason exists). Restricting what parts of the os you can or can't use just get's you into some kind of 1000 rule compo nightmare.