pouët.net

gloom: No, we get your point. You just have the tendency to have a very self-righteous way of expressing yourself. :)

Gloom just need a girl, this egotripping he is doing now is because of sexual frustration.

parapete: But nobody is talking about "competing with the best", at least not out of the gate. What was being discussed was wherever people actually choose not to get into the demoscene because they are too scared of the competition, which is counter-intuitive to say the least. :)

..and of course I don't think "Linger in Shadows" and such demos were slapped together randomly, I'm just saying that _MOST DEMOS_ are not created by PhD majors with a team of math-students and Pixar-quality 3D modellers behind them. It is the whole list above I see as "bombastic bullshit" - because most demos are created for fun by young entustiastic games-programmers and just for the hell of it.. and, of course; to compete and have a friendly rivalry with other demosceners.

tomaes: Yeah, I have a tendency to do that, I apologize. :) It's just how I react when I strongly object to theories being pushed as fact.

did you mean, "to strongly object to theories diverging from my very own perception of the world" ? ;)

gloom, yup I agree with all in your last post and I probably should have read the thread more thoroughly, but hitch's list was prepended with "Except that in early 90's, to create a top-notch demo you didn't need:". Given that context I think he is right.

that argument is indeed a bit weak, but i guess he's afraid that if all these people ever get to hear about is the best the demoscene has ever done, the whole affair may seem more daunting to them than it necessarily needs to be. he is wrong (imho) where he says that you should show "lesser" demos to emphasize that, that's crap indeed. you could eradicate that fear perhaps by saying "but i will also tell these people that there are thousands of prods released every year, in many different categories, and you can find them all on the same central website, along with a friendly forum with experienced users who might pull your leg a bit at times, but when you ask good questions will provide excellent answers, whatever direction your ambition aims at". or something like that, in your own words.

or maybe i'm all wrong, and you don't intend to speak to such a crowd at all, but that's kinda hard to guess ;))

guardian: Probably, but I'm pretty sure that "my very own perception of the world" in this case matches how many others also see their demomaking. I might be completely mistaken of course, so yeah, it is how I see it.

parapete: Yeah, that's true, I sort of missed that part a bit, which in retrospect makes my statements read.. well.. rather dickish I guess. :) However; it doesn't really change the fact that it implies that today such a list of skills are indeed needed, which I object to. At least, if it is to create a demo. To create the next "Debris" or "Lifeforce", you will of course need to posess many of those skills listed, that is completely true.

havoc: I agree completely to "showing lesser demos is the right thing to do". Showing great demos is what drives people to the scene. In 1993 nobody went "Oh, I can't show my friend 'Second Reality' because it's just too damn good - I'll rather dig up 'Mental Surgery' because nothing gets people into the scene like watching three 30 minute long scrollers and a starfield - great plan!" :)

havoc: That is of course supposed to read "I DISagree completely to your.." - jeez, I wish the ASM 64k intro compo could start soon.. ;)

I suspected you didn't read my post in it's entirety :], if you re-read it you may also notice this (we were talking about the top notch demos, that is, those you're effectively promoting):

You don't necessary need all that today but sooner or later this will be mandatory and it was mostly unknown or not used in the demoscene 20 years ago.

Afaik the demoscene is moving into that direction since several years now, there's even new positions being created for the process of demos creation, like eg. "demo director" maybe tomorrow "assistant director" etc. ?

Also this concept of doing demos solely for fun always sounded a bit suspicious to me. There's surely more motivations than just mere fun behind the demos creation process (or any creation for that matter), probably the whole range of human emotions like pride/sadness/greed/egoism/passion/anger/need for recognition/you name it.

Well, there you go with "assumptions" again. First off; you don't know what demos I personally show, and secondly; I'm not promoting demos - I'm _using demos_ as a means to promote the _demoscene_. :)


With all due respect: I think you're wrong. Not in that this wasn't required 20 years ago, because it obviously wasn't, but in that this is going to be a requirement to make demos from now on and into the future, because that simply is not the case.. for _most people_.

The skillset needed to produce demos have remained at an effective stand-still since the beginning of the demoscene, if you look at it with pragmatic eyes: 1) You need to be able to code on a platform of your choice, 2) You need to be able to produce graphical assets for that platform, and 3) You need a musical score to go with the visuals and effects.

That's it. What you need hasn't changed, just the platforms, tools and amount of time and effort to work with those platforms and tools have changed. This is why I am opposed to the basic premise that you are putting forward. :)


Of course, but it's mostly for fun - it's a hobby after all.

but a serious one apparently :D

Yeah I disagree. Demomaking is serious business.

guardian: there can be fun in taking your hobby seriously while you do it. :) f.e: it's phun "seriously" organizing your team or next production in a strange masochistic way :)

i fail to see how Linger in Shadows could be considered a "fun demo", or anything to do with our hobby tho. that simply smelt of big business sinking its claws into our "fun time". and although it's a beautiful piece of work, it's not something that represents the scene at all and shouldn't be used as an example to newcommers.

i mean, ffs, "this demo will be released once it has passed Sony's QC" - *shudder*

but i really will stfu abou that now :P

basically, when you guys will jump back some 9 pages, you'll find out that this thread was originally about the first issue of the zine radio show. how all this could get spoiled by a 2-man rumble over a simple webpage design is far beyond me.

dalezy: you're new on the internet, aren't you?

Then again, yes. You guys above stop talking so much and start listening, because basically you're both right, you just both forgot to add a few details that would've put your arguments into the right context.

And btw, yes, when we had this panel discussion at Realtime Generation two weeks ago, people did actually ask how the hell they should start demomaking at all in the face of all the Linger In Shadowses, the Lifeforces and Debrises out there; so it IS an issue. Then again the answer was easy: Look at the other 99%. Or simply do your thing.

Dalezy: If you jump back two or three pages, you'll see that the webpage design rumble morphed into a "What's the point of outreach?" rumble, which then again changed into a "Will there even be fresh blood in the scene from now on?" rumble.. so I'd say the thread has been quite versatile. :)

..but you're right - let's get it back on track. When will the next ZINE radio show be out? Now that Assembly is soon to be over there ought to be PLENTY of stuff to talk about for Okkie and Axel. Oh, and can Vincenzo be in on the actual talking next time as well? That would be cool!

Yes! Or at least, that is a plan! But we need to get it all arranged :)

btw gloom has easy talking, he's just the musician!

"Just the musician" ^^ ... so musicians seems to have nothing more in their head than sounds, patterns and noises or what does that mean? no further comment...

bad musicians don't even have that, so be proud! :)

BitArts: skrebbel was being funny, chill down :)

also, he is a musician

I am proud... of having much, much more than sounds, patterns and noises in head. Even musicians got a brain to do much more and think about much more than beeps. ;)

BitArts: i thought you were about to send me some mail about how hellish your life was using ptk ?