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Hi... interesting all this...
MRI: your story is very interesting... even a bit scaring to me:) ... cause it shows it can happen to everyone, even the strongest rationalist...
But as long as you didnt experience it, you can always say its something you really experienced, but not what you thought; something that you unconciensly triggered and that came at the right time to convince you... I think the brain can do _~VERY~_ weird things... But , as you said, you set a limit after which you surrender. Maybe your limit wasnt far enough? No offence, I know its easy for me to say that, me who hasnt felt so high during so long like you did... But... Like Optimus, I think I would always try to find an logical explanation(my brain secreted sthg during a very tough time etc...)... even if my explanation didnt convince me, I would stick to it:)... dunno.
Another thing: you say "ppl have free will so if they dont want they ll get nothin"; it means only the ppl who want to know god know him and are blessed in their lives... But that aint very fair(or is it?...), since he loves everyone ;and, moreover, in your story you DIDNT want it . Thats a contradiction to me. Correct me please? (or did you want it unconsciensly?)
Another other thing: Things were maybe done easier by the fact you wife already was converted, so it was easier for you to to admit everything was going to be back in order after it... you know, i have a twin brother, and we are not together anymore. i sometimes have the feeling I COULDNT live happy if he doesnt. Could you imagine what pain this would cause me if I had such a revelation and knew he didnt? that life was gong to be wonderful for me? Back to your case, if you say this can happen to everyone but doesnt , it seems unfair to me, so how can you accept being that much priviledged, and look at the others,and believe he wants that? I dont know if I m clear or if it relates to it...
But , as another thing to prevent you from believing, even in your case, how can you accept people suffering, dying, being slaughtered?
for a few ppl, you could say thg like "they deserved it"...For a genocyd, i m afraid its impossible. I think its a very powerful argument against believers, unless believers admit god is unfair and pityless. When you think about how he has saved you and changed your life, can you say to him "did you heard about all the ppl killed today" and still be thankful for what it does for YOU? maybe after all...
I youre happy now, all in all its a good thing, anyway I respect it, but its scary for other to think they miss something and to fear experiencing it at the same time...(why to be scared? I said it: i wouldnt mind many ppl close to me not feeling it, but some ppl i REALLY care about would make me sad to be chosen... very strange isnt it?)
hehe thats all for now sorry for the long post(but I not the only one nor the first:} )

btw, i really loved heaven7 and I still do.
Strange, I saw it many times and never thought it could be religion-related... but i did think it sets up an atmosphere...
keep makin demos!
Glory to the full-asm masterpieces! (and to the full-asm coders!)
(hope i dont start a real flamewar here hehe... anyway if we are more likely to start a flamewar with programming languages considerations than with theology/metaphysics, then this is a wonderful world:) (no need to run... or hide... its a wonderful , wonderful world... ahem , sorry;)

psonice: okok.. you make very strong assumptions here. What I don't get is: Everyone is telling about the church "rewriting" the bible.
But could anyone give me an example when it did happen? How can it possibly be?

I mean, yes, there are some passages, for instance this quite famous passage in first peter where the verse "the father, the son and the spirit are one" was later added.. but: these are just a few words and archeology found out it was a later addition because they find old manuscripts quite often.

So how can someone say that the bible as we have is far from how it is originally written?

I mean, yeah, just give me the proofs! I live my life after the bible and hell if this isn't right, then I'm in serious trouble!

helloworld: Yeah, I think that God is unfair.
He is unfair because if he was fair we would all be in hell..

I hope you get it, I think he is unfair to the "good" side of the border.. there's a negative-unfair and a positive-unfair..

Iblis: I do see your point, and appreciate that everything you said would be meant well, out of love and concern for your children, but I think it’s important that we all understand that our faith is subjective. I imagine most people believe their values are the right ones, but all values are developed through personal experience.

If you decide to bring a child into the world as a muslim I cannot see any harm in that, as long as it’s not forced on them against their will and as long as you don’t make any irreversible decisions on their behalf – like circumcision or like allowing a child to die because their religion won’t allow them a transplant etc (child abuse in the name of God doesn’t sit well with me at all).

You said you won’t stop them from choosing their faith when they are an adult and I believe that’s the right thing to do. If they want to study other religions and choose to follow another belief then their faith wasn’t true in the first place. But if they still decide that Islam is what they want this will strengthen their faith.

Speaking more generally now, I don’t think it’s feasible for any religion or person to have all the answers. I mean, a dog or an ant can't possibly fathom the idea of other planets and fish would never be able to explain city life. So it's reasonable that some things, such as the afterlife or the nature of existence, will always be beyond human comprehension.

The most we will ever know will always be restricted by human understanding and our 5 basic senses. That’s just 5 ways of interpreting what we know as real or true. How can we possibly comprehend a concept we can’t see, feel, touch, smell or taste? What if we had another sense and another way of perceiving the universe – would we perceive everything completely differenly, more advanced perhaps?

When you think about what most religions teach, it’s all based around human ideals and social concepts, like justice and punishment (heaven and hell), right and wrong, obeying authority (God). And most religions also have a tendency to anthropomorphize and simplify everything, like giving God human traits, or like the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans etc who used to personify the elements and planets, thunder (Thor), water (Neptune), earth (Osiris) the Sun (Re/Ra) and so on. I think this alone demonstrates our narrowminded thinking on these matters.

wade: right. That's where Jesus comes into play.. I believe that he came from God knowing all the things we cannot possibly know.
That's why I think the important question is if Jesus was a archeoligally and whatever real person..!

I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever whether Jesus(saw) was a real person or not. But to be honest, I dont think it is that important. It is not the facts that makes a relegion work, it is faith. Faith in something better, Faith that we're taken care off, nomatter if we can see it or not, or even if we belive it or not. Faith in the good in people, Faith in ourselfes etc...But most of all it gives responsability. I feel responsible, not only for myself, but roughly 1.2 bill brothers and sisters worldwide. Dont get me wrong, my heart bleed for everybody, who is put in a bad situation, nomatter what they belive in.

I have a personal responsability to make this world a better place, even if the cost is my life.
I am sure phred, and MRI will agree to this, because that is roughly the will of Jesus (saw), be he real or not. And if enough people start to feel that responsability, the world might actually end up being a better place.

That is the important thing.

iblis: I disagree.
I think the earth is and stays a bad place.. I don't bother making it better..
Sorry, there were too many backstrokes to still have this much faith in a better world. My believe is that life will be much better in heaven..

"and i say to ye, the kingdom of my father who send me, is right before your eyes."

Phred: just read bibles from different countries, different types of christianity, or compare a very old bible to a very new one, there are a lot of differences. I think a lot of them are probably due to translation: it's almost impossible to translate such a work without showing your own bias and beleifs, as many of the original writings are hard to translate exactly and are a little vague, so the translators give their own impression of what it means. Look at the arguments about gay priests at the moment, some say the bible forbids gays, others say it doesn't. If the bible was translated now you would get two different versions of those parts, to suit the people doing it. Take into account that the original writers would have done the same, and would certainly have been telling their side of the story, and you already get some way from the original facts.

I can't give you a lot of examples of this stuff, as i haven't studied many old manuscripts and compared them :) But I've read a lot of stuff about this over the years. For one thing, the bible has been 'censored' a lot - the original texts had much more sex and violence. You named another change yourself of course :) There are quite a few books about the original bible vs. the current ones you can read.

But my argument wasn't specifically about the bible of course, but about the manipulation of all the religions over time.

Also btw, i was not suggesting my version of the jesus story is true :) Just giving an example of how such things work. Take a look at how many saints have been made recently, and see how many of the 'miracles' they are said to have performed you really beleive are true.

Phred: hmm, just read the last line of your post, somehow missed it on the first read. What i'd say to that is this:

Even if the bible has been changed a lot over time, the main values of the religion won't have changed much (ok, it's possible the original message was to be gay, violent and drunk, but it's not likely is it :) The story of jesus and all the others has probably been heavily exagerated over time, but do you beleive in the religion for it's values and it's approach to life or cause you like the stories? So nothing much to worry about there.

After that, you only have one problem really, and that's if the whole religion idea was invented by man, and there is no god. Well, that's not really such a problem either, because if you live a good christian lifestyle, you'll probably have a good + fullfilling life (ok, so you'll waste a lot of time praying or sitting in a cold church ;) If there is a god, then you're covered anyway. I think the argument that religion x is the true religion, follow religion y and you go to hell makes no sense, why would any god set up such a situation where you're born say a muslim, live a good life, do many good deads, perhaps never even meet a christian, then you go to hell for not being baptised?

Wow, this thread came alive again! :-)

HeLLoWorld: You are of course right, that my limit could be lower than yours. But well, this happend when I was 29 yeras old and I'd like to think I was quite selfaware by that time. Read the arguments by Wade erlier in this thread. I have gone thru them so many times. But you are right, I was not totally neutral. I wanted to be able to believe in God, but I could not fool myself into that. About 3 years before this happend, my wife and I actually prayed together now and then, even if I didn't beleive. It was a way for me to get her to shut up. :-) But stuff actually happend, small things in everyday life. Stuff that was too specific to be statistically just another a coincidence. Still, this didn't make me a beliver one bit. I think for me it was more like that gross example from the bible, where one of Jesus deciples wants to put his fingers thru the wounds in his hands, so that he can believe that Jesus is alive, after he was crusified. Interestingly enough, Jesus offers him to do just that, so that he too can believe. :-) Well, that fits my situation quite well.

Regarding your other throughts, I believe God *is* a loving father and love all people. But he cannot "bless" us if we stand outside his protection. God is love, therefore he created us with a free will. We can choose to search for him and love him, or we can choose not to. Because true love can not be owned or forced. Sorry if this sounds like cliches, but I belive this is a core issue. Though, I don't have ansvers to all questions...

And why have I gotted this "experince" just like that and not you? I have no idea. More and more I think of it as God's humor. "Let's take the most stubborn person in the demogroup Doomsday, and give him proof of my existence." :-)

psonice:

Well, that's exactly my problem. I mean, christianity (the bible) says that, and the Qur'an says that.
I mean, either it is this way or it is that way, or it is another way. I would throw away my believe in God and the way of the bible if I would say there's another way..

but on the other side, you are that right. What have I to speak. What would I believe if I was raised as muslim.. I don't know.
But still I believe that there is an absolute truth.

I mean, just a thought:
If there is no absolute truth, then it's the absolute truth that there is no absolute truth. You then cannot say there's a absolute truth because there's no absolute truth.
Logically it's only possible to have an absolute truth. Or the whole thing is not logic, then why do we have logic, just to confuse us?

hey, btw: this is by far the best thread on pouet I have ever read.. I come here many days everyday to see what arguments are on.. great!

Good old logic eh? Logically, there are too many people on the planet, and some are hungry, so cannibalism is good. Logic can be used to argue a thing either way, it's not particularly useful in real life, although it's hard to do without if you're programming :)

And 'absolute truth' is a big grey area too :) Usually absolute truth is one side of the real truth, while the other side is another absolute truth. The real truth is often a bad mixture of the two. Check out Akira Kurusawa's film 'Rashomon' for a good example (and a great filmt too :)

And i'll say it again, if you are wrong, the bible is a collection of legends and manipulations, christianity is all false, what do you lose? You still have good ethics + morals, good attitude to life + others etc, and if there is a god, the chances are all the other religions are just as false, and you will still get to heaven (or be reborn as a cat perhaps ;)

A good thread and it differently of all thought me. It are important, to other ideas of the people because the people other sometimes are wiser, to listen, than we if we can learn much it.
It is arrogant say we know ALL. Who says, know that we more right, know more as the other people? The people, more intelligent are in the world that a that often lives, learn often and hear other people with a spirit openly to.

Do I encounter people who says it is Jésus or the prophet. at any moment that the forgery is the true original prophets? Is this a belief test?

If God want us to believe in he it no deceive us by other those religion.

Iblis: You are right. The reality is up to EVERY1. Personally I live with lotsa nationalities right now so als with their religions (Xtians, jews, musulmans). I can say that the disadvantage of ppl is that they do not care. They DO but only for their bussines (what is good if we are talking about 'good' egoism, school, work, etc). That is why the Earth is a bad place. Cause there is too much egoism and no althruism.

The aim of religion was to unite ppl under the name of the ONLY ONE GOD: Allah, IHVH, "Jesus' Father" (it is IHVH too), Buddha, +++. But the human nature is a killing instinct in the name of sth, sth what is better then the other's (yeah Amiga rules, PC sucks....shit).

Phred: Bible rewriting. If it was written as it stand now, and if it is a reflection of the past, so why in the bible all the normal woman are not mentioned or are only bitches? Why those who are sad, sympathying are the best? Was it like this? Surely not. And that is only one example.
BTW. Have you got my mail? I have also other titles to recommend you, but maybe later =). If you want..

Psonice: Bible censored. Yep, but do not forgen the erotic Songs of songs by Solomon.

Considering Jesus. A buddy like all of us, not(!) a god. We are the human beings as he was. If we try to work with ourselves, we could reach the level of Jesus' spirituality as well. Some faster, some not. Depend of the talent. I am more than in 1oo% sure. Jesus himself, he had more drawbacks we could have imagine (who want to be a chosen one and still live chilling out?). I do not consider him as I did in the past as a God. THE IT is the only GOD, not a human being. Even if he was a 'chosen one'. Everybody is a chosen one, but we do not know it. If we have a soul, a soul is a part of GOD, so we are a small god-beings. That is it.

The Xristian church worship Jesus and his mother TOO MUCH, giving only some lines to Deo Optimo Maximo. In the past there was a commandement - you will not visualise your GOD. But we know what we have now.

Heaven? What heaven? THIS IS YOUR World. The Univesum, the parallel reality. Voodoo religion, Xstian ghost (or holies existance) and all the kind of possessions shows that the World is a parallel one.


Why templars did not pray to cross?
1. Cause as I said, they claimed Jesus did NOT die on the X,
2. X have not had such a 'power' as today (to understand this I recommend you some scientific topics about 'morphogenetic resonance' or 'Shaldrake's resonance theory' - in short words it is our mutual consciousness; there was a test in the usa, the scientists gave some japanese lullaby (or so) to one group of children to learn it by heart and the second, statistyclly similar to japanese language text about nothing; and what?? children learnt easier and faster that old, medieval lullaby)
3. A tool of death as a object of religion and worship? Naaahh. Maybe we should start to worship a scythe instead? Or a tomb.

And tell me why all the Holy virgins statues are swarthy (does it stand for Marie Madelene or mother of Jesus..?.)

My respect, and thanx guys for such a marvellous topic. I bow my head b4 thee. Have a nice weekend.... NOT @ work =)

"If God want us to believe in he it no deceive us by other those religion"

God gave you the opportunity to choose. Is that a crime?

"God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Actually Gargaj, I would consider this a crime. It's one think giving us the choice, but making us guess and punishing us with hell if we guess wrong is pretty unreasonable.

On another issue. Can anyone tell me what Satan ever did that was so wrong? He tempted a lot of people (or rather he offered them a choice and often help in times of need), but I don't recall him doing as many cruel things as God.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

It sounds to me like God is admitting responsibility for the evil in the world. So where does the devil come in?

Wade: STN (hebrew = those who oppose), aka Lucipher (latin: full of light). It is sad he said 'I will not serve [God]' and was vanquished by the angel Michel, Ariel, +++. What I have read and experienced is that he is in co-op with God. That is tricky cause it looks like the other side of the God (the choce?). He must exist. Maybe ppl just found that name for him, but since I dunno there is always the other side.

Wade:
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
I am the wife and the whore, I am the holy and the cursed...
-The words (more or less) of Sophie, a gnostic goddess.

Everything comes from God, even the evil ones. From consequences of evil you may create goodness (see ying-yang for example). If you want to.

Damn! It is too big. I am saving it in my USB Stick to read it at home :)

Wade and sim: If you want to quote stuff from the bible here, could you please also provide the place in the bible where to find it, otherwise it will just become random sentences thrown around.

I'd like to read those places you quote, but I can't find stuff easily as I don't have the whole bible inside my head.