America's Biggest Demo / Digital Arts Festival
category: general [glöplog]
Am I the only one who finds these "outreach" efforts to be somewhat embarrassing. Is there really no shame in saying "Look at us, look at us, we're so great" to people who just don't give a crap.
It seems the people who did most for expanding the demo scene (if that's something we even need to do) were groups that made productions that were so good that they were spread around voluntarily, mentioned in magazines, and shown at computer expos, not by people who had some motive of expanding the demo scene, but by non-sceners who simply thought "that program is awesome" and wanted to show it to people.
I'd say groups like TRSI, Future Crew, and Farbrausch did much more to expand the demo scene than any "outreach" program ever could. And we certainly don't need to hire any "promoters".
In case you don't remember who TRSI are, they (and other groups) made cracktros that were included with cracks that they distributed, and a lot of people were introduced to demos by those things. Future Crew made Scream Tracker, which spread because of its usefulness, and demos and intros were sometimes distributed along with it. They also made the venerable Second Reality which some of my non-scener friends had copies of before I did, and I saw it being shown at non-scene related computer shows back then. Farbrausch made .kkrieger which became somewhat famous outside of the demo scene.
I guess the modern idea of a demo party has fooled you. Demos aren't about getting drunk and listening to loud music. Demos are primarily about an interest in computers, and their low-level use as a tool for creativity. Any kind of promotion that will work will be related to that.
It seems the people who did most for expanding the demo scene (if that's something we even need to do) were groups that made productions that were so good that they were spread around voluntarily, mentioned in magazines, and shown at computer expos, not by people who had some motive of expanding the demo scene, but by non-sceners who simply thought "that program is awesome" and wanted to show it to people.
I'd say groups like TRSI, Future Crew, and Farbrausch did much more to expand the demo scene than any "outreach" program ever could. And we certainly don't need to hire any "promoters".
In case you don't remember who TRSI are, they (and other groups) made cracktros that were included with cracks that they distributed, and a lot of people were introduced to demos by those things. Future Crew made Scream Tracker, which spread because of its usefulness, and demos and intros were sometimes distributed along with it. They also made the venerable Second Reality which some of my non-scener friends had copies of before I did, and I saw it being shown at non-scene related computer shows back then. Farbrausch made .kkrieger which became somewhat famous outside of the demo scene.
I guess the modern idea of a demo party has fooled you. Demos aren't about getting drunk and listening to loud music. Demos are primarily about an interest in computers, and their low-level use as a tool for creativity. Any kind of promotion that will work will be related to that.
needs more pouetizing! someone put a red <-actual size-> on a glowstick or bandana or something.
and well, demo parties kind of are about getting drunk and listening to loud music. at least the cooler ones. :)
and well, demo parties kind of are about getting drunk and listening to loud music. at least the cooler ones. :)
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Is there really no shame in saying "Look at us, look at us, we're so great" to people who just don't give a crap.
Proper outreach efforts is conducted towards people who actually care, that's what makes it proper outreach.
Just showing demos to random people is not outreach.
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I'd say groups like TRSI, Future Crew, and Farbrausch did much more to expand the demo scene than any "outreach" program ever could.
Not on their own. The groups themselves did not spread the word, it was the people who were impressed with their prods who did that. Also, I think you'll find that statement to be false in a few years time (I hope :)
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Demos are primarily about an interest in computers, and their low-level use as a tool for creativity.
If demos for you is about interest in computers, then I feel truly sorry for you. :) Computers is just our "DVD-player for demos".. and demos are certainly about getting drunk, listening to loud music, discussing the latest prods or the latest effect-craze. Demos are about socializing, people getting together. Demos are there to engage, to provoke and to spark joy and wonder, debate and frustration.
I'm not one of those people who go around calling all demos art, but I would say that most demos are indeed artistic, which is good enough reason to show it off to begin with.
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Not on their own. The groups themselves did not spread the word, it was the people who were impressed with their prods who did that.
Right.. but as I said, they spread it because they wanted the other people to have those things, because they were cool enough to want to distribute, as an end—not as a means to some long-term goal of expanding the demoscene.
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If demos for you is about interest in computers, then I feel truly sorry for you. :)
I selected a definition that differentiates demos from random youtube videos or 3DS animations or other creative things that are shown on a computer but that we wouldn't consider to have anything to do with demos.
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Demos are about socializing, people getting together. Demos are there to engage, to provoke and to spark joy and wonder, debate and frustration.
THIS.
For me, demos are an artform because of the combination of all elements. As a coder, that includes the code. I find the techniques on getting a certain effect working *itself* a work of art.
Demoparties in North America are (trying to be) just like Euro parties except getting drunk isn't quite as prominant because it's not part of NA culture (thanks to our idiotic drinking age of 21). But I think we're all on the same page.
Demoparties in North America are (trying to be) just like Euro parties except getting drunk isn't quite as prominant because it's not part of NA culture (thanks to our idiotic drinking age of 21). But I think we're all on the same page.
Yeah, I made a mistake to say that "it's about x" as if it were exclusively about x. I suppose it would be more accurate to say that x is the central theme that gives it some cohesion, and that everything else is important, but is secondary. ie. if you are putting the partying aspect of it first, then you are putting the cart before the horse, as they say.
Don't attempt to define "demo."
Thank you.
Brought to you by the service against useless definition matches.
Thank you.
Brought to you by the service against useless definition matches.
best demo ;)
gloom wrote on last page:
Then why is it that exactly Norway and Finland are the only countries where there's still some young sceners, some sceners who haven't been sceners for years already?
I think you did the thing right.
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No, it is definitively not the right approach. Coming from someone who has unsuccessfully tried to present demos to 6000+ visitors for years and years (guess which party), I can tell you with a high degree of certainty that you have the wrong approach.
Then why is it that exactly Norway and Finland are the only countries where there's still some young sceners, some sceners who haven't been sceners for years already?
I think you did the thing right.
and in general, i think it's cool what dilvie is trying to do. he seems to know well enough what he's talking about, and if the guys in those conference rooms telling people about demos (while the other 2500 ones are out raving and wearing pathetic clothes) are doing it good and with a passion, then i think all that is perfectly fine.
i very strongly disagree with the idea that showing demos to big audiences is a stupid idea per definition, and that the only way to keep a scene up and running is by small and cozy events. in holland we apparently went that way earlier than in other countries (around 2001, when the big parties all ended and got replaced by small cozy get-togethers), and there's very little of our scene left. of course people quit all the time, but i'm pretty sure that the fact that nobody told the semi-creative gamers, leechers, (ravers maybe) what the demoscene is about made an impact.
for my personal story, i was 14 and i made tunes in fasttracker because i wanted to be a pop star. went to demoparties ala takeover (which was half a lan, really) because all people who made tunes in fasttracker did so. without those party visits, i'd have never been a real scener, i think. i'm pretty sure that for many other sceners, the story is similar (creative interest in computer stuff, went to accessible party with demos but also lan features so could bring friends, chose for the demo part in the end).
i very strongly disagree with the idea that showing demos to big audiences is a stupid idea per definition, and that the only way to keep a scene up and running is by small and cozy events. in holland we apparently went that way earlier than in other countries (around 2001, when the big parties all ended and got replaced by small cozy get-togethers), and there's very little of our scene left. of course people quit all the time, but i'm pretty sure that the fact that nobody told the semi-creative gamers, leechers, (ravers maybe) what the demoscene is about made an impact.
for my personal story, i was 14 and i made tunes in fasttracker because i wanted to be a pop star. went to demoparties ala takeover (which was half a lan, really) because all people who made tunes in fasttracker did so. without those party visits, i'd have never been a real scener, i think. i'm pretty sure that for many other sceners, the story is similar (creative interest in computer stuff, went to accessible party with demos but also lan features so could bring friends, chose for the demo part in the end).
bottom line: if dilvie is certain he can do a cool event with demo-influences that's bound to attract shitloads of people, then why the hell are we telling him not to? at worst, he wasted some of his time and the people in SLC had a fun rave.
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Then why is it that exactly Norway and Finland are the only countries where there's still some young sceners, some sceners who haven't been sceners for years already?
Simple answer: we're not. :) There are young sceners popping up from other countries as well, not just Norway (which haven't really seen any new scene groups since PlayPsyCo I guess) and Finland.
Showing demos to a shitload of people is "shotgun marketing", and will probably have little real effect unless you have something to back it up with afterwards.
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why the hell are we telling him not to?
Are we? All I'm doing is try to learn more about the event.
If you show demos to ppl without propper educating about demos they'll think it's just another flash animation or youtube video.
I think it is a noble gesture to try to recruit more demosceners. But let's be realistic: Most of the people in todays demoscene started when they were 14-20 years old. And they staid because back then the demoscene consisted of people in that age group. The average age of the demoscene today is more than 10 years higher. If I were some 17 year high school guy I would probably be quite uncomfortable with all the drunken 30+ year olds at typical demoparties.
People above that age group are probably way too busy with amassing money for status symbols - especially in the US of A.
People above that age group are probably way too busy with amassing money for status symbols - especially in the US of A.
i guess it will be a win32 only compo? boring..
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Demos are about socializing, people getting together. Demos are there to engage, to provoke and to spark joy and wonder, debate and frustration.
you are mixing up demos with parties.
the two are rather equatable in my eyes though.
that's like saying music is equal to a rave
oswald: No, I am not. When I make demos, I make them together with people :)
Thinking behind the rave:
* Attract lots of people
* Attract good sponsorships (sponsors like eyeballs)
* Able to fund neat things like prizes, hardware, promotions, etc...
* Maybe I like to watch demos on 40 foot projector screens with a wall of sub-woofers. You got a problem with that? ;)
If you don't know why all of that is necessary, perhaps you've never tried to throw an event of any serious consequence before.
I'm not concerned with what you guys think of the "shotgun marketing" approach. I know a thing or two about marketing -- enough to know that a good mix of shotgun and targeted marketing is the best way to build a brand. Too much targeting, and you reach the saturation point to quickly... there's a real need to get fresh blood in the mix... too much shotgun marketing, and you wind up with no depth to the message -- no support system to catch and support the people who take an interest, and you wind up with a lot of waste.
That said, both the rave, and this party are going to happen anyway, and their schedules are close together, AND there's quite a bit of crossover in the music/audio production things going into both events. Given that I have a strong connection to both events -- WHY NOT do a bit of resource sharing between the two, and make both of them stronger?
It's very easy to criticize what other people are doing. It's something else entirely to do something yourself, and be successful at it. Last year my goals were to get a terrific venue, and accomplish some good community outreach. I think we did a good job at accomplishing those goals. This year, it's time to get noticed on the larger stage -- that means bringing in some bigger sponsors so we have the budget to bring out some speakers of influence. If that means we need to hook into a rave to attract sponsorship and continue the work of attracting fresh blood to the local scene, so be it.
The SparkArts organization was founded to INFORM people (ie, rave, media interviews, publicity), and EDUCATE (talks, workshops, hands-on participation).
Bottom line, I love demos. I love the demoscene. It was a huge influence on my life. When I love something, I like to share it with people.
- Eric
* Attract lots of people
* Attract good sponsorships (sponsors like eyeballs)
* Able to fund neat things like prizes, hardware, promotions, etc...
* Maybe I like to watch demos on 40 foot projector screens with a wall of sub-woofers. You got a problem with that? ;)
If you don't know why all of that is necessary, perhaps you've never tried to throw an event of any serious consequence before.
I'm not concerned with what you guys think of the "shotgun marketing" approach. I know a thing or two about marketing -- enough to know that a good mix of shotgun and targeted marketing is the best way to build a brand. Too much targeting, and you reach the saturation point to quickly... there's a real need to get fresh blood in the mix... too much shotgun marketing, and you wind up with no depth to the message -- no support system to catch and support the people who take an interest, and you wind up with a lot of waste.
That said, both the rave, and this party are going to happen anyway, and their schedules are close together, AND there's quite a bit of crossover in the music/audio production things going into both events. Given that I have a strong connection to both events -- WHY NOT do a bit of resource sharing between the two, and make both of them stronger?
It's very easy to criticize what other people are doing. It's something else entirely to do something yourself, and be successful at it. Last year my goals were to get a terrific venue, and accomplish some good community outreach. I think we did a good job at accomplishing those goals. This year, it's time to get noticed on the larger stage -- that means bringing in some bigger sponsors so we have the budget to bring out some speakers of influence. If that means we need to hook into a rave to attract sponsorship and continue the work of attracting fresh blood to the local scene, so be it.
The SparkArts organization was founded to INFORM people (ie, rave, media interviews, publicity), and EDUCATE (talks, workshops, hands-on participation).
Bottom line, I love demos. I love the demoscene. It was a huge influence on my life. When I love something, I like to share it with people.
- Eric
Yes, Legalize II, we know you already know everything about the demoscene and all of us Europeans should shut up and have our crappy parties and leave you alone. Because you already know all about marketing. And everything about the demoscene. Hell, you've written a paper on it - I'll go look for it to be linked at the top of the wankopedia article now.
Undoubtably it will contain 100% accurate truths about the demoscene, a cultural thing that began in Utah.
[sigh]
WHY ARE MY COUNTRYMEN SO FUCKING BONEHEADED AND WHY CAN'T I JUST SHOOT THEM, WASHINGTON IS A CARRY STATE WHY CAN'T I JUST SHOOT THEM
Undoubtably it will contain 100% accurate truths about the demoscene, a cultural thing that began in Utah.
[sigh]
WHY ARE MY COUNTRYMEN SO FUCKING BONEHEADED AND WHY CAN'T I JUST SHOOT THEM, WASHINGTON IS A CARRY STATE WHY CAN'T I JUST SHOOT THEM
WHY do they ask for help and then refuse all suggestions
WHY DO THEY ASK FOR HELP AND THEN REFUSE TO LISTEN
WHY CAN'T I JUST SHOOT THEM
WHY DO THEY ASK FOR HELP AND THEN REFUSE TO LISTEN
WHY CAN'T I JUST SHOOT THEM
apparently dilvie has already decided how to run the show and has experience in organizing a computer related event, so why focus on that? I haven't seen any sign of real help from the demoscene side.
has anyone agreed to help him with the seminars/workshops? I remember him saying earlier, that he'd pay the expenses from his own pocket.
has anyone agreed to help him with the seminars/workshops? I remember him saying earlier, that he'd pay the expenses from his own pocket.
guys, close your eyes as you want, but the most efficient 'marketing' way to bring fresh blood into the demoscene is still the traditional scene spirit, to produce cracktros that spread 'by themselves'...
