Watching Demos Can Kill You !
category: general [glöplog]
Shit!!! I just dreamed yesterday (after reading half of the novel) that I downloaded FATHER CHRISTMAS GETS FUNKY and watched it and then I was manipulated by illegal subliminal telepathy or something!
Quote:
Optimus : "I just dreamed yesterday (after reading half of the novel) that I downloaded FATHER CHRISTMAS GETS FUNKY and watched it and then I was manipulated"
There is no subliminals in this release. I swear. Not in THIS release... ;)
yeah yeah... so why i want to read the next issue now? ;)
i liked it very much. thank you very much for this book and soundtracks, which were closely connected with text.
also, i remember me and my friend had an idea, a long time ago, to do a text adventure evolving around local demoscene people and filled with some effects. i think, it could be interesting thing to play even now.
also, i remember me and my friend had an idea, a long time ago, to do a text adventure evolving around local demoscene people and filled with some effects. i think, it could be interesting thing to play even now.
i don't agree
Elfh : you're welcome. :)
A "text-adventure" is quite a nice idea. The thing is, I already thought about it but I never managed to find time & motivation. If you feel like it, do it ! And if you want some feedback on your work before the release, don't hesitate and email me. I'll be glad.
The thing is : keep humour level high, and don't do name-bashing. We're here for fun, not for slander. :)
A "text-adventure" is quite a nice idea. The thing is, I already thought about it but I never managed to find time & motivation. If you feel like it, do it ! And if you want some feedback on your work before the release, don't hesitate and email me. I'll be glad.
The thing is : keep humour level high, and don't do name-bashing. We're here for fun, not for slander. :)
no, i just shared an idea. don't really want to do it now.
Chicken ! Chicken !
(hint: pic of a french novel reviewer)
... So here we go for some notes about what I've read (in french) ... I was interested to watch the analysis that another scener could have of the scene's evolution in the last 15/20 years, compare it to my own experience and analysis, and see what shape could take an "interesting fiction" on the subject ? ( How can we be interesting ? )
So first, about the shape of the artwork: a novel. Personnaly, I always reproach a novel its fictious aspect, because most of the times, the author himself doesn't control what he want to mean with the "invented" part of the stories... not all authors are shakespeare, so most of the times these parts are relevants of inconscious elements from the author's mind, that need to be expressed ( like all arts ). In this novel, the documentary part and the fictious part are clearly interleaved: some pages of fictions, where the main character is visited in a prison ( that seems to have incorporated elements from some TV serials that are broadcasted in france: prison break, the numberous geek serials... ) ... and then, on most pages, as flash backs, real elements: a description of the "making of a demomaker", actually insteresting, and also a description of the experimental movies story, as interesting.
.. then comes the disturbing point: It seems to me that this "docu/fiction interleavement" has a precise goal: explaining what is the demoscene to someone who didn't know it (and wouldn't care in a normal basis, like nowadays most non sceners out there.) So the idea must be: "I'll interest the folks with some TV-like scenarii, everyoOone is interested by tv-like scenarii, then , when the fish is catch, explain them what is the demoscene, with some sci-fi reasonments". So from this point of view, the novel should be "readable" by non sceners... but well, to my mind, the novel is not readable by non-sceners: too much direct descriptions of un-objectives effects everywhere. There is some tries of explaining "to the outside" what it's about, and why we are interested and heated by all that, but less and less explainations during the story, and I really think unrelated people will miss the whole meaning of entire pages, especially in 2007. For more explainations about why it can't be understood, understanding some philosophy concepts on image meanings and languages (baudrillard, chomsky) could help: basically, communication is symbolical exchange. the demomakers 's whole perceptions, values, way to decode images, have been "constructed" from the adolescence because precisely, we used demoscene to construct ourself, using very specific codes, which are absolutely not universal. (well it goes further: the new generations will not be even capable of understanding why we did all that, mainly because the symbolic prize of images and "media" decreased to zero in the last 20 years.)
...
now I want to comment some sentences read here and there: (badly retranslated by me, just to indicate where it is, I 've read the french version:)
Good point !
lissajous !
Good point ! this is important to point out that technical progress transform the perception of the people.
it's ligetti !!! ahahah ! (i'm a big fan)
same remark: why underground ? because we are a closed field of experts.
lissajous !
ah ah ah! they all want to be superstar you mean ?
... So here we go for some notes about what I've read (in french) ... I was interested to watch the analysis that another scener could have of the scene's evolution in the last 15/20 years, compare it to my own experience and analysis, and see what shape could take an "interesting fiction" on the subject ? ( How can we be interesting ? )
So first, about the shape of the artwork: a novel. Personnaly, I always reproach a novel its fictious aspect, because most of the times, the author himself doesn't control what he want to mean with the "invented" part of the stories... not all authors are shakespeare, so most of the times these parts are relevants of inconscious elements from the author's mind, that need to be expressed ( like all arts ). In this novel, the documentary part and the fictious part are clearly interleaved: some pages of fictions, where the main character is visited in a prison ( that seems to have incorporated elements from some TV serials that are broadcasted in france: prison break, the numberous geek serials... ) ... and then, on most pages, as flash backs, real elements: a description of the "making of a demomaker", actually insteresting, and also a description of the experimental movies story, as interesting.
.. then comes the disturbing point: It seems to me that this "docu/fiction interleavement" has a precise goal: explaining what is the demoscene to someone who didn't know it (and wouldn't care in a normal basis, like nowadays most non sceners out there.) So the idea must be: "I'll interest the folks with some TV-like scenarii, everyoOone is interested by tv-like scenarii, then , when the fish is catch, explain them what is the demoscene, with some sci-fi reasonments". So from this point of view, the novel should be "readable" by non sceners... but well, to my mind, the novel is not readable by non-sceners: too much direct descriptions of un-objectives effects everywhere. There is some tries of explaining "to the outside" what it's about, and why we are interested and heated by all that, but less and less explainations during the story, and I really think unrelated people will miss the whole meaning of entire pages, especially in 2007. For more explainations about why it can't be understood, understanding some philosophy concepts on image meanings and languages (baudrillard, chomsky) could help: basically, communication is symbolical exchange. the demomakers 's whole perceptions, values, way to decode images, have been "constructed" from the adolescence because precisely, we used demoscene to construct ourself, using very specific codes, which are absolutely not universal. (well it goes further: the new generations will not be even capable of understanding why we did all that, mainly because the symbolic prize of images and "media" decreased to zero in the last 20 years.)
...
now I want to comment some sentences read here and there: (badly retranslated by me, just to indicate where it is, I 've read the french version:)
Quote:
on page 28/29: "science doesn't destroy poetry, there are multiple way of reading reality"
Good point !
Quote:
p39: lissajoux
lissajous !
Quote:
p40: "in the sixties, humanity reach a critical mass with medias
Good point ! this is important to point out that technical progress transform the perception of the people.
Quote:
p41: (about the ending music of 2001)
it's ligetti !!! ahahah ! (i'm a big fan)
Quote:
Yeah, incredible sentences, but it touches deeply the problem of the demoscene: we are not aware of the way we constructed our own perception. Of course the teacher cannot understand. It's not allergy. I've read the sociologist bourdieu about "professionnal fields". Professionnal fields are "sets of expert", like let's say mathematics, or physics, which demands years of learning to be really understood. To be part of a field, you got to work hard, stock incredible amounts of informations, and then evolve in the hierarchy of the field, by working. No one, outside the field, can participate to the field. That's the price for making the field evolve, you see ? So the complete un-understandment of the "outside world" is the price to pay.... if we want to go further.... you know most people have the same problems with their jobs... they can't explain what they do to their family ! p67: (about a teacher:) "most literary people are allergic to technology,[...] so try to explain the value of a rotozoom [...] I will take a simple example to show how they were wrong[...] "
Quote:
p68: the meaning of the word "underground" took all its value.
same remark: why underground ? because we are a closed field of experts.
Quote:
p79: "lissagoux"
lissajous !
Quote:
p80: "demomakers have the will to keep inconspicuous, this anonymity protect them[...]"
ah ah ah! they all want to be superstar you mean ?
LOL, I really would like to see the text adventure edition of Outline 2006 :-)
Quote:
Your command> give prize to winner
You give the prize to the winner of the graphics compo.
But then, suddenly a snapping sound, a power failure!
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Your command>
Oh come on, Will, don't tease him !
No, wait... Please do ! :D
No, wait... Please do ! :D
anybody remember mazzembly? =)
more precisely http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=6287
So yeah an infocom style interactive fiction around the scene might fit as well!
Although now I'm picturing a lucasart adventure set in the whereabouts of a party.
So yeah an infocom style interactive fiction around the scene might fit as well!
Although now I'm picturing a lucasart adventure set in the whereabouts of a party.
sparcus :D
sparcus wins the other prize.
Quote:
Personnaly, I always reproach a novel its fictious aspect,
... ?!
(o_O)
Novels are about telling fancy lies. You're not confortable with novels ? Read actual science ! :DDD
Quote:
most of the times, the author himself doesn't control what he want to mean with the "invented" part of the stories
Oh come on, Krabob ! Spare us the cheap "Freud me beautiful" small-talk, plz... Exactly how much do YOU actually control what you wanna mean with the "invented" parts of your own demos ? Tunnels, spikeballs, lowres textures ? Are you sure you really want to go that way ? :DDD
Quote:
the main character is visited in a prison ( that seems to have incorporated elements from some TV serials that are broadcasted in france: prison break, the numberous geek serials... )
Gosh, that one just made me laugh. :) I have actually never watched Prison Break. Not even once. And for that (small) chapter, I mostly took inspiration from actual documentaries on genuine French jails and books of real "hacktivists"...
Quote:
So the idea must be: "I'll interest the folks with some TV-like scenarii, everyoOone is interested by tv-like scenarii, then , when the fish is catch, explain them what is the demoscene, with some sci-fi reasonments".
Oh daaaaaamn ! OWN3D !!ONE!!!ELEVEN Yes Krabob, I confess : I'm a attention-whore, I'm a TV-serial bitch ! And I have no fucking imagination of my own, so I feel compelled to watch just every godamn american serial I can think of, and to steal their ideas to improve (?!) my novels.
You got me, man. I'm so ashamed... Keep going, talk dirty to me ! :DDD
Quote:
to my mind, the novel is not readable by non-sceners: too much direct descriptions of un-objectives effects everywhere.
I think you wildly under-estimate the geek crowds abroad. What's the purpose of reading a novel if you don't read something "bigger", "stranger" than you ? Something that blow you away, beyond your own boundaries ? Some pages are impossible to get for uneducated audiences ? Well guess what : either they'll skip the parts and continue the journey (come on, I could have added much more technobabble, you know...), either they'll stop and google a bit (which is just great), or they'll throw the book away (and I'm not really interested in those ones).
Quote:
we used demoscene to construct ourself, using very specific codes, which are absolutely not universal.
Okay...
Quote:
the new generations will not be even capable of understanding why we did all that, mainly because the symbolic prize of images and "media" decreased to zero in the last 20 years
That's not true. You're speaking from a French-centric point of view. It's not because our country is stuck into wide-spread ignorance and into hate of science that it's the same anywhere on the planet. There are, everywhere, very talented and very educated people that are completely able to understand the Scene.
Quote:
because we are a closed field of experts.
Okay, let skip the self-confidence expressed by such statements (hehe) and instead let's focus on the fact that the Scene should be a cultural phenomenon, not a "field of experts"-thingie that people will be scared to come close. I completely gung-ho for the technical race, don't get me wrong. But I believe there's place nowadays for beginners too.
Oh, and mind you : there are people -in the advanced computer fields- that don't really think that demomaking is rocket-science coding... On day, I accidentally stumbled on such a blog entry : I don't know if a demomaker had stolen the guy's girlfriend (well, THAT would be science-fiction, I guess), but he was really downplaying the level of demomaking.
My point being : it's not because you view yourself as a proud member of a small elite that you actually are. There are -very- smart asses in just every field.
I will try to add more detailled comments about what I've said:
Watch out: what you will find everywhere, are people with good computer knowledges and culture, sufficient to understand what means "realtime rendering", the basic explaination of what is exactly a demo, and technical terms. But even for this people, you will not succeed *in no case* to explain the value you (we) attribute to demos. To understand it, you have to know what was the symbolic prize of doing a "moving animation" in the early nineties: a demo like "state of the art" was really incredible and never seen, and was mindblowing for the perception of anyone at the time: video games, adverstisment, (etc...) couldn't offer much. In that times, images and video where again a bit "rare to find", and then, you could do incredible things in your garage with computers... which gave you a symbolic prize. Plus, it was incredibly hard at the time to do that. People from the 2000's would naturaly think it was as easy as now. Explaining how difficult it was to a youngster takes hours of technical explainations. Nowaday, I think something like youtube/dailymotion destroyed the symbolic prize of images/video to zero: (free, easy to click, and all the more usefull that's its short to use) . It is difficult for younger people (if not impossible) to undestand what was the value of images before 1995. This "context of perception" which was a moment in time, complex to describe (some things were rare and others were not), that build the perception of our generation, is dead.
Plus, if the technology capabilities is meant to "double each years", it means being in such buisness is not an affair.... you're bound to loose.
Plus, we have more and more "symbolic competitors" which have lots of advantages: VG, flash, pre-computed anims, the low cost of doing 3D everywhere, adverstisments,... so many unwanted ads in each corners of our screen of real views... 1000 ads seen by days everywhere...
Plus: in the 80's being a coder has a big symbolic prize: "little genius stuff"... now coders are seen like "people to exploit"... especially when they claim they are "little genius" and it's all the more the case for "loosers that works for free."... if there are "so many of them"... they don't cost much.
Plus: the new generation is always about "going to see blockbuster movies"... and if you're at closely analyse what happens is those movies is that, year by year, dialogs are shorters... you must have action scenes each 3 minutes... actually the attention span of the new generation is shorter and shorter... this is to make them get more ads and think less. And it devaluates the prize of what they perceive.
Plus: they got images everywhere, in the 90 there was just TV and cinema that's all, now they got TV on their phones, they can make their own TV and bother others. directly on the phone in their pants !!! A lots of moving images, with 3D effects and stuffs, with very easy access ... you can't value that.
I mean, Each computer scientists I met recently ( from the space indistry or army actually, 25-30 year old people, very intelligent. ) couldn't keep their eyes on a demo for more than 5 seconds, and their first reflex was to search for the time bar to get automatically further in the demo.... heard:"It sucks!!! Where is the time bar ?" heard all the time after watching a few seconds of the better demos of the year: "and then ? and then ? and what is the point of realtime ?". And you're laughed at, etc... don't deny you perfectly know it: there are actually some scene like that in your story and all you say about it is that "you can't understand why they don't like demo"... WTF ... of course they can't. What you didn't understand is that your own symbolic judgements are only relative to yourself, the way you construct yourself, and that outside of you, this judgement has "another value", or even no value.
first: the scene * has been *, is, and will stay for sure a great cultural phenomenon, even if it only applies to 0.01% of the people, and that most of the sceners were only active 3 or 4 years. Having a "little popularity" doesn't decrease how interesting it is, * on the contrary * it valuates it much to my mind. Yes, this is against the "audimat" (TV viewing audience) thought, you know the "viewing audiance thought" is quite new to mankind and was condidered stupidity still the end of the 1970's (people that claimed they are more right because they are viewed more). It never existed in any field before. Having a public success for a writer was considered a shame for him. (yes, you may not believe me but it was the case) It takes to un-learn a lots of bullshits to get it: "public belief" doesn't exist, etc... plus, cultural phenomenoms born, live and die all the times,... we can't do nothing about it. It seems the movement is more stronger than experimental movies BTW. Plus , demos are interesting (for us only, but they are.)
... If you would be "forced " to get into a movement, would you be afraid ? and the word "scared" is from you ! there may have been guys around, that didn't pay a shit about demos and making them, and that were just into scene to "make friend", "have relationships"... and guess what ? that's not the point of demoscene, the point of demoscene is to make demo. If you're here to make friends only and feel integrated, .... well I find it really scarry... being integrated sucks, you just don't have to.
Of course he did. How could the last "farcry machin engine" be sold,if it was not said to have the symbolic prize of being better than "the things around" ? How could microsoft sell its fucking new OS if it has no new stuffs that push you to pay for it ? The aim of technology *as it is sold to us* is precisely to *downplay* symbolically anything else ! and by anything else, is meant the product of the last year, but also you and all you can do, and exactly: by destroying the meanings of the symbols of each ones.
Quote:
There are, everywhere, very talented and very educated people that are completely able to understand the Scene.
Watch out: what you will find everywhere, are people with good computer knowledges and culture, sufficient to understand what means "realtime rendering", the basic explaination of what is exactly a demo, and technical terms. But even for this people, you will not succeed *in no case* to explain the value you (we) attribute to demos. To understand it, you have to know what was the symbolic prize of doing a "moving animation" in the early nineties: a demo like "state of the art" was really incredible and never seen, and was mindblowing for the perception of anyone at the time: video games, adverstisment, (etc...) couldn't offer much. In that times, images and video where again a bit "rare to find", and then, you could do incredible things in your garage with computers... which gave you a symbolic prize. Plus, it was incredibly hard at the time to do that. People from the 2000's would naturaly think it was as easy as now. Explaining how difficult it was to a youngster takes hours of technical explainations. Nowaday, I think something like youtube/dailymotion destroyed the symbolic prize of images/video to zero: (free, easy to click, and all the more usefull that's its short to use) . It is difficult for younger people (if not impossible) to undestand what was the value of images before 1995. This "context of perception" which was a moment in time, complex to describe (some things were rare and others were not), that build the perception of our generation, is dead.
Plus, if the technology capabilities is meant to "double each years", it means being in such buisness is not an affair.... you're bound to loose.
Plus, we have more and more "symbolic competitors" which have lots of advantages: VG, flash, pre-computed anims, the low cost of doing 3D everywhere, adverstisments,... so many unwanted ads in each corners of our screen of real views... 1000 ads seen by days everywhere...
Plus: in the 80's being a coder has a big symbolic prize: "little genius stuff"... now coders are seen like "people to exploit"... especially when they claim they are "little genius" and it's all the more the case for "loosers that works for free."... if there are "so many of them"... they don't cost much.
Plus: the new generation is always about "going to see blockbuster movies"... and if you're at closely analyse what happens is those movies is that, year by year, dialogs are shorters... you must have action scenes each 3 minutes... actually the attention span of the new generation is shorter and shorter... this is to make them get more ads and think less. And it devaluates the prize of what they perceive.
Plus: they got images everywhere, in the 90 there was just TV and cinema that's all, now they got TV on their phones, they can make their own TV and bother others. directly on the phone in their pants !!! A lots of moving images, with 3D effects and stuffs, with very easy access ... you can't value that.
I mean, Each computer scientists I met recently ( from the space indistry or army actually, 25-30 year old people, very intelligent. ) couldn't keep their eyes on a demo for more than 5 seconds, and their first reflex was to search for the time bar to get automatically further in the demo.... heard:"It sucks!!! Where is the time bar ?" heard all the time after watching a few seconds of the better demos of the year: "and then ? and then ? and what is the point of realtime ?". And you're laughed at, etc... don't deny you perfectly know it: there are actually some scene like that in your story and all you say about it is that "you can't understand why they don't like demo"... WTF ... of course they can't. What you didn't understand is that your own symbolic judgements are only relative to yourself, the way you construct yourself, and that outside of you, this judgement has "another value", or even no value.
Quote:
the Scene should be a cultural phenomenon, not a "field of experts"-thingie that people will be scared to come close
first: the scene * has been *, is, and will stay for sure a great cultural phenomenon, even if it only applies to 0.01% of the people, and that most of the sceners were only active 3 or 4 years. Having a "little popularity" doesn't decrease how interesting it is, * on the contrary * it valuates it much to my mind. Yes, this is against the "audimat" (TV viewing audience) thought, you know the "viewing audiance thought" is quite new to mankind and was condidered stupidity still the end of the 1970's (people that claimed they are more right because they are viewed more). It never existed in any field before. Having a public success for a writer was considered a shame for him. (yes, you may not believe me but it was the case) It takes to un-learn a lots of bullshits to get it: "public belief" doesn't exist, etc... plus, cultural phenomenoms born, live and die all the times,... we can't do nothing about it. It seems the movement is more stronger than experimental movies BTW. Plus , demos are interesting (for us only, but they are.)
Quote:
that people will be scared to come close
... If you would be "forced " to get into a movement, would you be afraid ? and the word "scared" is from you ! there may have been guys around, that didn't pay a shit about demos and making them, and that were just into scene to "make friend", "have relationships"... and guess what ? that's not the point of demoscene, the point of demoscene is to make demo. If you're here to make friends only and feel integrated, .... well I find it really scarry... being integrated sucks, you just don't have to.
Quote:
On day, I accidentally stumbled on such a blog entry : I don't know if a demomaker had stolen the guy's girlfriend (well, THAT would be science-fiction, I guess), but he was really downplaying the level of demomaking.
Of course he did. How could the last "farcry machin engine" be sold,if it was not said to have the symbolic prize of being better than "the things around" ? How could microsoft sell its fucking new OS if it has no new stuffs that push you to pay for it ? The aim of technology *as it is sold to us* is precisely to *downplay* symbolically anything else ! and by anything else, is meant the product of the last year, but also you and all you can do, and exactly: by destroying the meanings of the symbols of each ones.
Video version plz.
I once exploded in a violent orgasm and died, after watching electric kool aid.
Krabob : interesting post, really. You are a bit bitter but I, for one, can understand why... But demomaking isn't the only art to be a bit forsaken by the newer generations.
As a conclusion, I don't agree with each and everyone of your points, but I DO see common grounds. I hope we'll discuss about it one day in a party (if I have time and money).
As a conclusion, I don't agree with each and everyone of your points, but I DO see common grounds. I hope we'll discuss about it one day in a party (if I have time and money).
i spotted sth.:
Assembly ´93 - "Some Assembly Required" by EPSILON.!!!!
^^there are your subliminal "vote"-messages ;)
Some Assembly Required
...i even found a French Group named EPSILON,but Truck sayz it was done by The Dancing Fool/Epsilon[USA] ..!
Assembly ´93 - "Some Assembly Required" by EPSILON.!!!!
^^there are your subliminal "vote"-messages ;)
Some Assembly Required
...i even found a French Group named EPSILON,but Truck sayz it was done by The Dancing Fool/Epsilon[USA] ..!
I'm gonna check it soon. :)