pouët.net

Didn't you earlier say:



I'm happy to research this, i'm just not sure where to look for evidence of this new and exciting theory. Do you have some examples of where I could start?

I typed "9/11 hijackers hired by US government" into google, but not a lot came up.

cruzer. dont go there, this debate is not about backing up claims, but merely making them and then reffering to ones favourite outlet.

If a one size fits al explanation is good enough for people, let them have it, be it from alex jones, cnn or wikipedia. But it is just that, a one sieze fits all expalanation that motivates people not to think but become eager defenders of a particular view, and then confuse this with knowing anything.

Where have I now blamed the whole thing on Jews? Seems like you guys are out of arguments when you have to pull claims like this out of your ass all the time.

I raised a possability different from the one you suggested. The difference is, mine was a theory, you stated yours as an established fact, from the same material meteorik.

I apologise - that was d0dge, on page 9. My mistake.

cruzer i agree. but they doint see it. They dont see that they are subscribing as much to conspiracy theory as we are, only they dont want to admit that they are. We have the same facts and footage to look at, but they have it right because if there is anything history have thought us. The majority is always right....oh wait....

I admit that we'll never fully know the exact details of what happened, but pretty much every line of investigation has been followed, and at great expense. What annoys me is the hysteria of the conspiracy theorists. I have 10001 reasons to hate the US government - they're corrupt as hell, but if their loudest opposition is people jumping up and down and yelling "they're killing us!!!111one", they'll never get voted out.

Yup, and authorities can always be trusted, since they always do their best to serve the people's interest. :D

they are killing us, i dont see the problem admitting to this. We are being poisoned, lied to and manipulated. As i say, i understand full well that people are willing to accept even crazed conspiracy theories (think david icke here) and that alone really does tell a world of its own of a system that people have lost faith in because it does nothing but lie to its population. this is the real 'conspiracy', but i rather see it as a natural thing in a system that honours having resources opposed to being a nice person.

It doesnt matter where in the western world you live anymore, the same things are true or becomming so. You know this and i know this

We will never full yknow which is why i dont spend a lot of time on 9/11 issues, because the facts has been blurred enough, and that is what is really worrying. The report was honest to God a discrace to any intelligent reader. Why? Why the need to lie if they have the truth all nailed down.

The conspiracy crowd can have a number of reason for doing it, but why would the government do it? for the same reasons! personal gain and this is where the dog is burried. And you can call that a conspiracy theory if you want, i call it history, and a damn shame.

Because people's names are Silverstein, Warburg or Rothschild, I do blame Jews ?!??! You must be kidding, fellow!
And I did made a clear point, after kind of teased by Unseen, not to put religious matter into this discussion, then just cited an old jewish poem in Yiddish to make fun of his mad assumption on page 8, stating: "c) they're racists (they believe that neocon = rich jews)" .
As I stated in the brackets in my Silverstein question... the name (say heritage) doesn't matter. The money matters.
Please be reasonable.

Fair enough. Apologies.

The "there were no jews in the building" conspiracy theory was probably the worst of the bunch.

Although anyone who believes there wasn't a religious element to the attacks is mis-informed.

however we view it, whether we belive the official story or the other interpretations of the same bunch of facts, 9/11 came to mark a turning point in the governing of the western world, and not a very good one.

Contempt for minorities, fear driven politics, a population who are too afraid to ask questions or are tagged with labels if they do, as far as im concerned the way things are going we just need to introduce public beatings and dismembering and we are effectively living under sharia law with a priesthood of politicians as opposed to a democratic model.

There is a greater chance of you being hit in the head by a rock from space than becomming a victim of a terror attack, yet this 'thing' is now dictating world policies. Laws are being put in place all over the western world that limits the freedoms of its inhabitants, more surveillance, international conventions have suddenly become optional apparently and the list just wont stop.

Who is driving this thing, because sanity jumped off several stations ago.

this whole thing is very religious. It is the Abrahamic traditions in a brawl. And when religion is involved, evil is never far away.

Personally i just think that those who truely benefit from it all, those who sell guns wins nomatter what side of the battle wins, they get to go to the bank and collect money, same with energy. These guys would be too smart to be religious, but what a mighty triune wasps nest to have at your disposal huh?

In America i dont think you would ever see a president come forth and admit to being an atheist. I just dont see that happening. America is like the rest of us, somebodys tool and its about time to figure out who wins nomater who looses ,and ONLY gains if there is conflict. Do the math.

hmm... let's see who controls the money

No, I don't want to grant more power to anyone. A government needs just enough power to defend the freedoms of its people, and protect it against anything up to "small" groups of thugs, like say the mafia or random Islamic jihadists. That's a delicate balance, though, and not compatible with the nature of power, or the complacency and indifference that follows naturally from living in freedom and peace. So, the price of freedom is eternal vigilance - who'd have guessed. And the price of indifference is this: :-(

.. which is why we need people to focus on what's actually happening, because there's some terrible shit going on and the balance is way off already. Skepticism about 9/11 is fine, and especially about the undeniable way in which 9/11 is being exploited by power-hungry politicians everywhere, but make sure you're doing it right. Skepticism means asking questions and seeking answers, not making claims and mining for information that could be taken to support pre-drawn conclusions. Specifically, to be an actual skeptic you must be prepared to accept that much (if not most) of the time, the answers you find won't be all that exciting.

The US government didn't conspire to destroy the WTC. At least, there's nothing but speculation to suggest that they did. But what they did conspire to do, without any doubt, was to take advantage of the situation to promote their own political and personal agendas in ways they couldn't have gotten away with otherwise. And that makes them guilty of terrorism in a very literal way, even if they were never involved in the actual attacks.

Is all I'm saying. ;P

I dont think anyone claims that it was the US government who planned it, but rather knew about it would happen and stood down. The real planners obviously are those who gains the most from it (and owns the politician sock puppets), the corporate conglamorates like halliburton and the carlyle group, not limited to those 2.

This would make several members within governement guilty of being PART OF a conspiracy. And i think there is well enough evidence of plausible motif atleast.

9/11 didnt just happen out of nowhere and they hiked a ride, The Invasion of Iraq was planned years in advance of both invasions. One of the funny facts, allthough it proves nothing at all, is that nato during the late 70's changed the color of their uniform from green to light tan. Do you know why they suddenly changed to sand/desert colours? what did the top heads know the rest of us did'nt?

I can live with a few things surrounding a case being suspicious, but everything including the reaction is suspicious about 9/11. Other than that i think we are much on the same track though.

No, that's the ideal world where all people are rational and all events fit perfectly into simple patterns. You can't explain suicide bombers in that world.



They did gain from it. So did a lot of parachute manufacturers (seriously).



I don't believe for a second that the war in Iraq could have been avoided. They really wanted it, by the looks of it. But the fact that they planned FOR it years ago doesn't mean they intended for it to happen then. During the cold war they prepared for an invasion of Russia, not because they were going to invade, but because they thought it might become necessary. They even planned for nuclear attacks on a lot of countries, as they no doubt continue to do today. All just contingency planning. It's what military strategists do.

suicide bombers can be easily exaplined. when you press people enough, they get to the point where they just dont care anymore, fuse this with anger and you have a suicide bomber. very predictable in fact. Apply the same on a microscale and you have the postal guy.

But we are not talking about a bunch of people who are irrationel in that way. They are in the way that they willingly shit in their own nest, but i think that is because they do not give a shit what anyone has to enharrit after them.

a lot of companies not directly linked to warfare gained a lot, that is true. Toilet paper, toothpaste the government contracts blew up. So there was more than enough reason to go through with something like 911 in an era where military budgets where being cut signifigantly.

Youre trying to explain the as it where the result of some fluke, when it is awfully clear that, that just doesnt make a whole lot of sense. Ideally or not.

sorry...I posted a biased view on this particular bankers family.
this is the snippet I originally intended to show you

Without attacking the conspiracy theory believers I would to ask a question.

What is strange about the (official) story that a group of Islamic fundamentalist people where behind the attack?

Have you never seen the news (yes, yes, all biased)? Don't you know there is a lot of hatred towards western countries in many Islamic countries? I have been in Kenya for a half year, and I have heard them preach the most horrific things about mzungu's (white people.) One day one of the preachers was shouting through his mosque speakers "I regret that my life is to short to be able to kill all mzungu's". And that over and over again.

What about the bombings in east africa, madrid and london? Are those also setup up?

There is no denying that terrorism and fear is used by many western (and islamic) governments to change the public opinion. It is obvious. But I just fail to see why the official 9/11 story is so strange.

Look,



In a world where it's "obvious" that whoever benefits from a crime is also the criminal behind it, you can't hold suicide bombers responsible for what they do. Because they don't benefit, at all, in fact they get blown up, so they're "obviously" not responsible. In the real world you can benefit from things you had nothing to do with. Even bad things like terrorism, and sometimes that would imply that you're a bad person. But it doesn't mean you must be responsible.



And apply the same on a large scale and you have people hijacking planes to fly into skyscrapers. All you need is a bunch of really angry people who want to die.

My point about parachute manufacturers was that they did benefit from 9/11, but does that mean they engineered it? You really wouldn't want that sort of reasoning used against you, would you?

yes the suiciders benefit, allthough not in a way you and i can understand. But they expect a handsome heavenly reward for doing what they are doing. It does however show over and over that the individual suicide bomber is not the planner of his own actions. He is motivated by people behind him, who obviously are too smart to blow themself up. But you dont think the same thing could apply to the G:I's and their actions?

During the last decade we have been planting, and it looks as if it is on purpose, hatred in the middle east. We have treated them in accordance to what we reap now. Africa, our treatment of those people goes without saying that they hate the sight of us.

Why was it neccery to plant that hatred, who did it benefit. Did it benefit you? it didnt benefit me. But it was done as part of what you call "long term planning" that military people are paid to do.

I dont think colgate toothpaste are responsible either just because they got government contract on toothpaste to marines. However, those and the parachuit company are not the ones who have been on this since day one. LIke haliburton, Like Carlyle group (whoms stock practically blew up, im sure the bush family was happy about that one).

If you cannot go with them being part of a conspiracy, at the very leat accept that all of the top people, Bush, Cheney, the wolf, rumsfeld was in a position of dual interrests when they opted for war, and had it planned long before 9/11 ever happened. Bush was carlyle people, cheney haliburton, rumsfeld just happened to cash in on the birdfly panic...this is endless how much dual interrest these people have wielded. To not suspect them of conspiracy is actually the incredible naive thing here when you think about it.

Personally i do belive that arabs hijacked planes and flew them into the towers, and that the wtc7 colapsed as a result of being hit by debris, But i find it obvious that the CIA motivated these arabs as they even took them from the same bunch they usually motivate the bin laden gang.

So you are making an unfair case here inflience devise. It is not obvious that they did it only because they had everything to win from it, but because they have been all over it from the beginning pushing their own self interrests, and that.....is the definition of a conspiracy-.

without attacking official conspiracy theory believers, how do you make any sense of this kind of self serving (as mentioned above) without suspecting something is amiss? What kind of viel do i have to draw before my eyes and mind, to not take notice that those most in favour of an eternal conflict, where the ones who started it.

This conflict did not start on 9/11 that was merely an escuse to start the plans allready in place. So, does it matter who really did it, no it doesnt, we just have to deal with the aftermath and here it is damn certain who the criminals are. Those we (the non official conspiracy believers) suspect conspired to make it happen.

Wars are a part of human history (and future), I don't believe there is a bigger plan behind it.

The parallel with creationism is actually stronger then I thought, now that I think of it. Both groups promote a lot of ideas that are not proven at all and are based largely on emotions and paranoia.

whty do i find it obvious that the CIA was the motivators (obviously acting on someones elses behalf)? because that is what even contemporary history shows that they are all about.

documented by the New York Times, Iranians working for the C.I.A. in the 1950's posed as Communists and staged bombings in Iran in order to turn the country against its democratically-elected president (see also this essay).

http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/041600iran-cia-index.html

and now we are comming back to Iran to remove those bad people that we put in place there. The same goes for Saddam and im sure all of you know he was our buddy back in the 80's, boy did that change.

And, as confirmed by a former Italian Prime Minister, an Italian judge, and the former head of Italian counterintelligence, NATO, with the help of the Pentagon and CIA, carried out terror bombings in Italy and blamed communists, in order to rally people’s support for their governments in Europe in their fight against communism.
As one participant in this formerly-secret program stated: "You had to attack civilians, people, women, children, innocent people, unknown people far removed from any political game. The reason was quite simple. They were supposed to force these people, the Italian public, to turn to the state to ask for greater security."

source1:http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,462976,00.html
source2:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_of_tension

the above crap is just too close to home to what is going on atm, and it continues. To hell with northwoods allthough i belive it to be genuine, there is an obvious trend going on here, all the way up untill present date. But i am to belive that they wouldnt do this anymore?

Im not the one who is naive here folks.