The 64 MB limit at BP07
category: general [glöplog]
Still I'd say things have got quite a lot better over the years. Almost every new demo runs quite well on a 2-year-old not-so-high-end gaming pc whereas say 8 years years ago you could barely run half of the new demos decently on a 2-year-old gaming rig
i don't think size limits are anything essential for demos. it makes sense to restrict sizes to amounts you can distribute reasonably (like single floppies for C64 etc). but size optimization is not the point of a demo compo.
i didn't really think about size limits for a long time (just upping them by a few megabytes every year), but that changed around february 2006 when we ended up talking about size limits on a meeting (don't know how we arrived at the topic). shiva told me (some years ago) that he spent the last few days of work on relais doing all kinds of compression stuff (and noize reducing texture sizes and decreasing JPEG quality values) to make it fit inside the 12MB limit at breakpoint 2003.
i didn't really think about it at the time, but now i'm convinced that kind of thing is just harmful. you shouldn't have to waste time on this kind of stuff if you're just trying to do a demo (if you want to size optimize, you're doing 4ks or 64ks anyway). and i'll gladly download a twice as big .ZIP file if it means the art hasn't been needlessly stripped down (for demos that are graphics-heavy anyway).
i didn't really think about size limits for a long time (just upping them by a few megabytes every year), but that changed around february 2006 when we ended up talking about size limits on a meeting (don't know how we arrived at the topic). shiva told me (some years ago) that he spent the last few days of work on relais doing all kinds of compression stuff (and noize reducing texture sizes and decreasing JPEG quality values) to make it fit inside the 12MB limit at breakpoint 2003.
i didn't really think about it at the time, but now i'm convinced that kind of thing is just harmful. you shouldn't have to waste time on this kind of stuff if you're just trying to do a demo (if you want to size optimize, you're doing 4ks or 64ks anyway). and i'll gladly download a twice as big .ZIP file if it means the art hasn't been needlessly stripped down (for demos that are graphics-heavy anyway).
and wow, i should've really reread that before posting it. awful style with the "i think" at the start of every paragraph. forgive me, i'm not worthy :)
random lamer thoughts.. not serious ofcourse ;)
"LIRALUNA IS RIGHT OFCOZ WE SHOULD HAVE DEMO COMPO SIZE LIMIT 10MEGS BECOZ WE'RE DEMOSCENERS AND WE MAKE ALL THE COMPRESSING LIKE WE MAKE 96K SHOOTER THAT WOULD TAKE 200MEGS LOLZZ!!! WE JUST COMPRESS IT LIKE 1) COMPRESS YOUR DEMO 2) ???? 3) PROFIT !!! SCENERS INVENT ALL THE TIME ALL THE COOL PACKERS LIKE WE PACKED POPULAR DEMO 20MEGS INTO 64K THAT READS IN SLASHDOT LOL!!! 64MEGS IS TOO BIG, I NEED DAY TO DOWNLOAD IT WITH MY 14,4KBS MODEM LOL :(( I MEAN FR INVENTED PACKING TECHNIQUES THAT THEY CAN FIT WHOLE 2GIG DEMO INTO 64K MAYBY FR SHOULD GO OPEN SOURCE AND TELL HOW THEY DID AND WE COULD ALL MAKE 10MEGS DEMOS" hope u catch the irony ;)
"LIRALUNA IS RIGHT OFCOZ WE SHOULD HAVE DEMO COMPO SIZE LIMIT 10MEGS BECOZ WE'RE DEMOSCENERS AND WE MAKE ALL THE COMPRESSING LIKE WE MAKE 96K SHOOTER THAT WOULD TAKE 200MEGS LOLZZ!!! WE JUST COMPRESS IT LIKE 1) COMPRESS YOUR DEMO 2) ???? 3) PROFIT !!! SCENERS INVENT ALL THE TIME ALL THE COOL PACKERS LIKE WE PACKED POPULAR DEMO 20MEGS INTO 64K THAT READS IN SLASHDOT LOL!!! 64MEGS IS TOO BIG, I NEED DAY TO DOWNLOAD IT WITH MY 14,4KBS MODEM LOL :(( I MEAN FR INVENTED PACKING TECHNIQUES THAT THEY CAN FIT WHOLE 2GIG DEMO INTO 64K MAYBY FR SHOULD GO OPEN SOURCE AND TELL HOW THEY DID AND WE COULD ALL MAKE 10MEGS DEMOS" hope u catch the irony ;)
Quote:
size optimization is not the point of a demo compo
Why is there a size limit then?
Nutman: Stop the selective quoting/ripping-things-out-of-context already, shall we? ;)
Nutman: Read. To limit distribution problems.
Quote:
Read. To limit distribution problems.
Ok, we are once again addressing a topic that really can't be resolved since it depends on who you are, where you're coming from (perception-of-the-scene wise), how long you've been in the scene, and last, but not least: Keeping up with evolution...
But, to me, limiting distribution problems sound so much easier with 32MB than with 64? ;)
ps: yes, realtime is good. If it runs fast. I can't call a slideshow as "realtime".
kb: I saw no a single demo in the last year wich runs 1280x720 with 60 fps. So, video still runs much smoother. It's time to upgrade, you say? I say: it's time to optimize the code. Well, there are no problems with FR's demos: they are fast, good looking and small enough. So, I wonder why you worrying. FR can made 10 times smaller demo and win a compo anyway.
anes said a good word.
raimo, you are a dreamer, if you really hope to run every new demo on 2-years-old PC. Some of them needs shaders 3.0, for example.
Now, compare 195/95/256 by RGBa with 195/95 by Plastic. First one is 320 times smaller then second one. Could you say it 320 times worser as well? Guess, no. Give to RGBa additional 64 kbs, and they can made the same visuals as Plastic did. I don't want to say everyone must to optimize their products into 64 kb, no. But it's really unattractive to download huge, slow, uncompatible demos. It looks like nobody care, can somebody watch his demo or can't. Such things cause the stratification of Scene society (sounds funny, but it's true).
kb: I saw no a single demo in the last year wich runs 1280x720 with 60 fps. So, video still runs much smoother. It's time to upgrade, you say? I say: it's time to optimize the code. Well, there are no problems with FR's demos: they are fast, good looking and small enough. So, I wonder why you worrying. FR can made 10 times smaller demo and win a compo anyway.
anes said a good word.
raimo, you are a dreamer, if you really hope to run every new demo on 2-years-old PC. Some of them needs shaders 3.0, for example.
Now, compare 195/95/256 by RGBa with 195/95 by Plastic. First one is 320 times smaller then second one. Could you say it 320 times worser as well? Guess, no. Give to RGBa additional 64 kbs, and they can made the same visuals as Plastic did. I don't want to say everyone must to optimize their products into 64 kb, no. But it's really unattractive to download huge, slow, uncompatible demos. It looks like nobody care, can somebody watch his demo or can't. Such things cause the stratification of Scene society (sounds funny, but it's true).
my 2 year old home pc has ps3.0. (gf6600gt, p4 3.0, 1gb ram.)
thats more or less what i target.
thats more or less what i target.
if you dont get it, read the whole thread! ya' know, this years democompo will still suck, but hopefully the good demomakers will make good use of the extra megs, if they need them.
I agree with Quisten. Why should this be an issue?
this discussion is, in many ways, so terribly, terribly depressing. i was going to post something really arsey, but decided against it - instead, let me point a few things out in a friendly fashion.
- size != hardware requirements, so stop linking them.
4ks and 64ks often have higher hw requirements - 4ks are about the only division using ps3.0 regularly, and 64ks (especially ours) have problems because of the large amount of data precalced at the beginning (e.g. several million polys, loads of textures) in a less than optimal format (size coding has it's limitations). you need to precalc it because of the time it takes to do it. if you can load off disk instead you have a lot more options.
- not everybody wants to make a minimalistic demo with some glow and lines and particles. i sure dont. we want to use graphics. so let us.
- we have compos for doing something clever in a small size (but sacrificing some visual quality or limiting the scope of what you can do. which, by the way, i'm well aware of.). the demo compo is for doing whatever you can on the machine, not a size coding compo with a bigger size limit. small exe size isnt the only impressive thing you can do on a pc.
- if it _was_ a size coding compo, dont you think a lot of the people who are pro the bigger size limit (like us, farbrausch members) would do pretty well, seeing as we have a pretty good track record in 64k already?
dont you think you should trust us to know what to do with the extra size, if we want to use it?
- and by the way, just because _you_ dont have any 3d graphicians to work with, doesnt mean _we_ shouldnt be able to let ours let their imaginations run riot.
- if you're worried about big pre-calced 3d animations and stuff making their way into the demo compo, better reduce the amiga size limit first. in pc land we can actually do it realtime, you know. :)
- precalcing 64mb of tables for optimisation purposes..? wtf? wtf? wtf?
- size != hardware requirements, so stop linking them.
4ks and 64ks often have higher hw requirements - 4ks are about the only division using ps3.0 regularly, and 64ks (especially ours) have problems because of the large amount of data precalced at the beginning (e.g. several million polys, loads of textures) in a less than optimal format (size coding has it's limitations). you need to precalc it because of the time it takes to do it. if you can load off disk instead you have a lot more options.
- not everybody wants to make a minimalistic demo with some glow and lines and particles. i sure dont. we want to use graphics. so let us.
- we have compos for doing something clever in a small size (but sacrificing some visual quality or limiting the scope of what you can do. which, by the way, i'm well aware of.). the demo compo is for doing whatever you can on the machine, not a size coding compo with a bigger size limit. small exe size isnt the only impressive thing you can do on a pc.
- if it _was_ a size coding compo, dont you think a lot of the people who are pro the bigger size limit (like us, farbrausch members) would do pretty well, seeing as we have a pretty good track record in 64k already?
dont you think you should trust us to know what to do with the extra size, if we want to use it?
- and by the way, just because _you_ dont have any 3d graphicians to work with, doesnt mean _we_ shouldnt be able to let ours let their imaginations run riot.
- if you're worried about big pre-calced 3d animations and stuff making their way into the demo compo, better reduce the amiga size limit first. in pc land we can actually do it realtime, you know. :)
- precalcing 64mb of tables for optimisation purposes..? wtf? wtf? wtf?
smash: it's important to precalculate your sinus-tables, you know.
kusma: shit - i knew i was going wrong somewhere.
It's good if you'll use extra-size well. My vote goes for 2d-painters first. Second place for 3d-animators: here are almost no animation in the demos. Smash, you said, nobody has a good 3d-artists? Don't sure. There are a lot of demos with nice static 3d scenes and camera flyby. But that 3d scenes are dead without talanted animator. You know, good animator can bring the life even into the bunch of flat shaded cubes... So, 2d-painters and 3d-animators are welcome to that extra-size :)
what id like to see.. is good fucking 3d .. for real. some imaginative stuff like in moppi demos, tbl, fairlight and plastic. good 3d! gooooood! GOOD. so plz make so
and yea.. cocoon
Damn you and Damn your 3d modellers !!! :-))
we will never catch up now..
we will never catch up now..
But I just can't see how the same reasoning doesn't rule out the 64k intro compo. "If you want to size-optimize, do a 4k."
And I can't see how it doesn't invalidate the demo compo either, actually. "we have compos for doing something clever in a small size" -> "we have compos for doing something graphical in a big size".
Pre-rendered animation lets your 3D artists do whatever they want, it eliminates loading time and compatibility issues, and everyone will be able to watch the production at full resolution and framerate. You can even pre-render the demo via DirectX in realtime, if that's what you want. The audience will appreciate the realtime stuff more because you say it's realtime.
Is that not saying the exact same thing? If not, then I just don't see it.
It's that kind of thing that cost tracker musicians the tracked music compos. Parties kept raising the size limits, saying "this is what the musicians want" (and maybe it was) and kept allowing new file formats and more channels, even VSTs and all that, and eventually there was no reason for a tracked music compo anymore. So now you _render_ your tracks and enter them into the streamed compo that way, if at all.
BTW not a nice thing to say about the size limit in the Amiga compo, Mr. Smash. Grr! Nobody asked us, you know. Apparently the limit just gets upped by a few megabytes every year for no good reason. ;)
And I can't see how it doesn't invalidate the demo compo either, actually. "we have compos for doing something clever in a small size" -> "we have compos for doing something graphical in a big size".
Pre-rendered animation lets your 3D artists do whatever they want, it eliminates loading time and compatibility issues, and everyone will be able to watch the production at full resolution and framerate. You can even pre-render the demo via DirectX in realtime, if that's what you want. The audience will appreciate the realtime stuff more because you say it's realtime.
Is that not saying the exact same thing? If not, then I just don't see it.
It's that kind of thing that cost tracker musicians the tracked music compos. Parties kept raising the size limits, saying "this is what the musicians want" (and maybe it was) and kept allowing new file formats and more channels, even VSTs and all that, and eventually there was no reason for a tracked music compo anymore. So now you _render_ your tracks and enter them into the streamed compo that way, if at all.
BTW not a nice thing to say about the size limit in the Amiga compo, Mr. Smash. Grr! Nobody asked us, you know. Apparently the limit just gets upped by a few megabytes every year for no good reason. ;)
manwe: hei, i hate not beeing able to run ps3.0 stuff aswell. plus the new machine i had to get to run new fairlight stuff. but watching it run realtime on that latest machine still beats watching the video. if not for anything else, for the proof of concept that it can run, and that your machine does limit the performance on several key points. it's still quite puzzling how the more we advance in technology the harder it gets to be able to play everything on any computer with any configuration, instead its still all quite hardware specific, its quite frustrating, but i digress..
you did give a good example: 195/95/256's music SUCKS ASS due to, you got it, size limitations, i still prefer watching the original despite it beeing idontknowhowmany megs. that just shows size optimization skills, doesnt make it any more beautiful artistically, quite the contrary, rapes the ethos in quite a few places. they did as proof of concept that it can fit in 64k, thats great, but plastic did it better without the size constraints. anyways, this discussion is leading nowhere..
you did give a good example: 195/95/256's music SUCKS ASS due to, you got it, size limitations, i still prefer watching the original despite it beeing idontknowhowmany megs. that just shows size optimization skills, doesnt make it any more beautiful artistically, quite the contrary, rapes the ethos in quite a few places. they did as proof of concept that it can fit in 64k, thats great, but plastic did it better without the size constraints. anyways, this discussion is leading nowhere..
nutman: ...and if we all did 32 byte intros, we could just dictate hexdumps over phone connections or send them on postcards.
limiting distribution problems is one thing, eliminating them is quite another. of course 64k intros are easier to distribute, 4ks are even easier, and <256b intros are no problem at all. that's not the point. a reasonable percentage of sceners is able to download 64MB demos in less than 20 minutes nowadays, just like it was possible for a reasonable percentage of 1993 sceners to download 2.1MB (packed) demos like second reality or crystal dream 2 from a mailbox (and for even more to get them via swappers on floppy disks). the main issue nowadays is how much traffic we are willing to pay for, with (nearly) every scener having at least indirect access to a high-speed internet connection (like by using an internet cafe).
limiting distribution problems is one thing, eliminating them is quite another. of course 64k intros are easier to distribute, 4ks are even easier, and <256b intros are no problem at all. that's not the point. a reasonable percentage of sceners is able to download 64MB demos in less than 20 minutes nowadays, just like it was possible for a reasonable percentage of 1993 sceners to download 2.1MB (packed) demos like second reality or crystal dream 2 from a mailbox (and for even more to get them via swappers on floppy disks). the main issue nowadays is how much traffic we are willing to pay for, with (nearly) every scener having at least indirect access to a high-speed internet connection (like by using an internet cafe).
hey I downloaded crystal dream 2 over a 2400 modem back in the days. It took a bloody night...
navis, me too...me too :) it was worth every minute..
Hey i downloaded untamed by fuel on 14k modem for a fucking WEEKEND, and it didnt even WORK :D
