playstation 3 or whatever
category: general [glöplog]
The whole above mentioned conference:
http://cryptosystem.org/video/tmbinc-consolehacking2k6.ogm
http://cryptosystem.org/video/tmbinc-consolehacking2k6.ogm
ravity: well xna for xbox360, ps3 has this linux thing, wii has nothing...
shadez: ah ok, by developers I thought you meant licenced developers. In the case of homebrew development you're right.
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ravity: well xna for xbox360, ps3 has this linux thing, wii has nothing...
Yeah :(
But aparently you can't code for the PS3 GPU with that linux :|
<INSERT MODCHIP HERE>
ah, isnt he one of the "we cant handle asynchronous multi-core systems, boohoohoo" crowd, along with carmack and sweeny? :)
ps3 or whatever ?
whatever =)
But hell, Gabe Newell..haha...
hahahahahahahhahahaha!
whatever =)
But hell, Gabe Newell..haha...
hahahahahahahhahahaha!
Smash, problem is that we've yet to SEE a game by someone who CAN. Judging from PS3's launch lineup the Cell hasn't yet proven its worth outside the usual scientific or DSP stuff that's been parallel for ages now.
kb: but then, the ps2's lauch titles were pretty unspectacular too by and large. (oh, and the xbox 360's lauch titles more or less sucked, and certainly didnt get the most out of that console either.).
it'll take a bit of time before you see titles that really make use of it, but there will be some. i know first hand what this thing can do, and it's really preetty impressive. ive done routines on it i simply couldnt get the performance near to on a pc - even only on one spu, not the whole bunch. :) it is a bit difficult to code on, but the results are rewarding if you do things the right way. (which makes it a great demo platform btw)
if you're just porting from a 360 or pc title, you probably arent doing it the right way. :)
it'll take a bit of time before you see titles that really make use of it, but there will be some. i know first hand what this thing can do, and it's really preetty impressive. ive done routines on it i simply couldnt get the performance near to on a pc - even only on one spu, not the whole bunch. :) it is a bit difficult to code on, but the results are rewarding if you do things the right way. (which makes it a great demo platform btw)
if you're just porting from a 360 or pc title, you probably arent doing it the right way. :)
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(which makes it a great demo platform btw)
How come if there's only an access to a miserable framebuffer via linux ?
Because Linux sucks...
For the same price I would buy a NeoGeo with games instead ;)
which one keops ?
I'm happy owner of MVS :D
I'm happy owner of MVS :D
smash: I don't doubt that (somewhere in the world there's at least one SPU waiting for me to do wicked audio stuff on), and a straight port from the 360 is probably the dumbest thing you can do (given that the 360 has three of those PPC cores where the PS3 has one ;).
Still you have to throw away about everything you have already programmed and half of what you know about game programming to take full advantage of the Cell and then learn everathing anew - and this will take LOTS of time. Not to forget that there still _are_ other platforms and you're in for a buttload of either technical or budget problems if you don't target the PS3 exclusively.
This is of course before middleware suppliers catch up and provide solutions that are suitable for all platforms. Let's hope that all that stuff isn't prohibitively expensive tho. Ageia seem to do a good job there.
Still you have to throw away about everything you have already programmed and half of what you know about game programming to take full advantage of the Cell and then learn everathing anew - and this will take LOTS of time. Not to forget that there still _are_ other platforms and you're in for a buttload of either technical or budget problems if you don't target the PS3 exclusively.
This is of course before middleware suppliers catch up and provide solutions that are suitable for all platforms. Let's hope that all that stuff isn't prohibitively expensive tho. Ageia seem to do a good job there.
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but then, the ps2's lauch titles were pretty unspectacular too by and large.
Sony has always been a incompetent cunt when it came to development support. The PS2 was such a bizarre creature at launch that developers were hard-pressed to figure it out properly until a year or two after launch. So it was mostly a "rethink things from scratch" affair. I appears PS3 development is "more of the same".
But hey, let's not forget about the PS1 -if it wasn't for Psygnosis porting the original devkit's APIs and hardware to a less costly and less fucked up PC-based solution, people had to work with the stuff Sony thought was "good" :)
http://www.dailymotion.com/visited/search/wii%2Bvs%2Bps3/video/xcgqa_ps3-vs-wii
easy and dishonest but fun :D
and seriously, i doubt the future sales of the ps3 can justify the development of many AAA titles, except in Japan...
easy and dishonest but fun :D
and seriously, i doubt the future sales of the ps3 can justify the development of many AAA titles, except in Japan...
Zest: My Wii doesn't look like that :(
I don't think that the "what you get" comparison between xbox360 and ps3 doesn't justify the price. xbox360 games look at least as good as PS3 games, and people usually buy the cheapest thing if there are two things that look the same. Sony needs to sell at least 6 games per console to have profit and and by now there aren't many games worth buying. I think there's some really bad management at sony.
I don't think that the "what you get" comparison between xbox360 and ps3 doesn't justify the price. xbox360 games look at least as good as PS3 games, and people usually buy the cheapest thing if there are two things that look the same. Sony needs to sell at least 6 games per console to have profit and and by now there aren't many games worth buying. I think there's some really bad management at sony.
xernobyl: And I suppose you also think that disallowing pr0n on Blu-ray was a bad move too. ;)
As for myself, I like to wait a while before I buy stuff like consoles. Six months to a year can work miracles on a platform. Just look at the DS:
+ a little while for Nintendo to realize it looked like shit =
And then there's the whole thing with maybe being able to live with hardware that isn't absolutely state-of-the-art. As fancy as the PS3 may be, the PS2 should be way more attractive right now than it was two years ago.
Besides, no pr0n!? WTF! /o\
As for myself, I like to wait a while before I buy stuff like consoles. Six months to a year can work miracles on a platform. Just look at the DS:
+ a little while for Nintendo to realize it looked like shit =
And then there's the whole thing with maybe being able to live with hardware that isn't absolutely state-of-the-art. As fancy as the PS3 may be, the PS2 should be way more attractive right now than it was two years ago.
Besides, no pr0n!? WTF! /o\
WHAT?!?
I didn't know that :|
You can't distribute porn on bluray???
:|
What? WHy? Who? When?!
Where is the freedom of speach and expression going to? :(
I didn't know that :|
You can't distribute porn on bluray???
:|
What? WHy? Who? When?!
Where is the freedom of speach and expression going to? :(
by the way, the ps2 is still outselling everything except the ds. (including the wii and 360). the ps2 will be the biggest platform out there for a year or two to come, yet.
and the whole talk of "sony has to sell loads of games to yadayadayada, they're totally screwed" - here's how it works: they sell at a loss while the console costs loads to manufacture and they expect only early adopters to buy the machine - the ones who would buy plasma tvs and brand new hifi every couple of years. but in 5 years, when there are shedloads of games and the console is a load cheaper to manufacture, they'll be making lots of money on it. they're in it for the long game. ps3 is meant to have a shelf life of 8-10 years or so, just like the ps2 and ps1 did, from first release to the end of it's life. they expect to make a sizeable loss at first but then a huge profit later.
the wii approach is imo very shortsighted. already people are saying they bought a wii but they're bored of it - you can see all it has to offer very fast, it's the kind of product that lasts 3 years at most and dies out.
kb: actually you arent entirely right. you can actually dump c++ code onto the spu and it should work just fine (except for a few things like virtual functions) thanks to a working compiler for it. sure, it may not be optimised (and you can improve the speed 1000-5000% if you rewrite it the right way), but it'll work - and all of a sudden you have 6 more 3ghz cpus running (except with a tiny memory access penalty compared to the main cpu (ableit with a quite small memory pool to work with) - dont forget the ppc units in the 360 and ps3 are pretty crappy in terms of branch prediction and memory access penalties / cache performance compared to what you'd get in a desktop computer - they arent the same chips).
the main effort is to think in terms of multi-threaded processes that dont require large amounts of random memory access. and hey, if you do that you'll be doing something that also makes a lot of sense on 360 or modern pcs. games coders should be doing this already, regardless of platform. so you see, coding on ps3 is good for you. :)
the ps3 is considerably easier to work with than ps2 was at launch. when we got our first ps2 devkits the docs+examples were in japanese, the debugger+compiler sucked or were non-existant and it was a huge change from previous working practices.
and if you worked on ps2 you should find ps3 a lot easier. the ones who have problems on ps3 are either a) old coders who cant think of something cool to do with the power or b) people who never worked on ps2 and are used to pc+xbox stuff. :) sure, sony still has a long way to go to match MS on the compiler/deugger/sdk/ease of use out of the box stakes, but this has been the major focus of sony's work recently and it's many times better than ps2 - and getting better.
the 360 still has some sizeable gpu advantages over the ps3, but the spus can do stuff you simply cant on a 360. should be interesting times ahead.
and the whole talk of "sony has to sell loads of games to yadayadayada, they're totally screwed" - here's how it works: they sell at a loss while the console costs loads to manufacture and they expect only early adopters to buy the machine - the ones who would buy plasma tvs and brand new hifi every couple of years. but in 5 years, when there are shedloads of games and the console is a load cheaper to manufacture, they'll be making lots of money on it. they're in it for the long game. ps3 is meant to have a shelf life of 8-10 years or so, just like the ps2 and ps1 did, from first release to the end of it's life. they expect to make a sizeable loss at first but then a huge profit later.
the wii approach is imo very shortsighted. already people are saying they bought a wii but they're bored of it - you can see all it has to offer very fast, it's the kind of product that lasts 3 years at most and dies out.
kb: actually you arent entirely right. you can actually dump c++ code onto the spu and it should work just fine (except for a few things like virtual functions) thanks to a working compiler for it. sure, it may not be optimised (and you can improve the speed 1000-5000% if you rewrite it the right way), but it'll work - and all of a sudden you have 6 more 3ghz cpus running (except with a tiny memory access penalty compared to the main cpu (ableit with a quite small memory pool to work with) - dont forget the ppc units in the 360 and ps3 are pretty crappy in terms of branch prediction and memory access penalties / cache performance compared to what you'd get in a desktop computer - they arent the same chips).
the main effort is to think in terms of multi-threaded processes that dont require large amounts of random memory access. and hey, if you do that you'll be doing something that also makes a lot of sense on 360 or modern pcs. games coders should be doing this already, regardless of platform. so you see, coding on ps3 is good for you. :)
the ps3 is considerably easier to work with than ps2 was at launch. when we got our first ps2 devkits the docs+examples were in japanese, the debugger+compiler sucked or were non-existant and it was a huge change from previous working practices.
and if you worked on ps2 you should find ps3 a lot easier. the ones who have problems on ps3 are either a) old coders who cant think of something cool to do with the power or b) people who never worked on ps2 and are used to pc+xbox stuff. :) sure, sony still has a long way to go to match MS on the compiler/deugger/sdk/ease of use out of the box stakes, but this has been the major focus of sony's work recently and it's many times better than ps2 - and getting better.
the 360 still has some sizeable gpu advantages over the ps3, but the spus can do stuff you simply cant on a 360. should be interesting times ahead.
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the main effort is to think in terms of multi-threaded processes that dont require large amounts of random memory access. and hey, if you do that you'll be doing something that also makes a lot of sense on 360 or modern pcs. games coders should be doing this already, regardless of platform. so you see, coding on ps3 is good for you. :)
And that's what I talked about when I said it'll take years. This is a way of coding that's entirely new for (let's take a wild guess) more than 80% of game programmers and that also isn't taught too much at universities etc.
Other than that you're completely right, just couldn't keep myself from entering rant mode as it seems :)
(and i know developer hell pretty well, i've made and shipped quite an amount of PS1 (!) games without ever having used a "real" devkit or, heaven forbid, a debugger ;)
smash: the problem is, that most of the developers are not prepared to think in a multithreaded way. Well of course you have 6 SPU's but actually they spend most of their time on waiting. There are still jobs that can't be divided so easly. Maybe some of the extra power can be spend on predicting what will come next and calculate it in advance. But actually it isn't a very safe solution.
