a reply to manwe
category: general [glöplog]
Manwe:
You're constantly arguing here about someone being a good musician because of tracker usage. I hope I don't need to quote any :)
I was refering to any technique of creating music and gave an example.
Scene is far too young for you to even consider using that as an argument backing. Availability of using non-tracker formats in demos has been around for just a few years now because of technical limitations.
Civilizations and even history and the reasons for it have a tendency to atrophy and fade away from our knowledge or rewrite and possibly skew itself. Though I'm not saying tracking would die from the demoscene.
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I never told about "good" or "bad" music.
You're constantly arguing here about someone being a good musician because of tracker usage. I hope I don't need to quote any :)
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you should think about midi once more: what it was in 1986-1992 (I remember very well because I used it then), what kind of experience it can gave and for whom.
I was refering to any technique of creating music and gave an example.
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Now, point to a good scene musician who never saw a tracker.
Scene is far too young for you to even consider using that as an argument backing. Availability of using non-tracker formats in demos has been around for just a few years now because of technical limitations.
Civilizations and even history and the reasons for it have a tendency to atrophy and fade away from our knowledge or rewrite and possibly skew itself. Though I'm not saying tracking would die from the demoscene.
I wonder how many people remember (/were even around) when h0l's Mono was pure 4ch tracker releases...
xeron, damn, you beat me to it :) .. We were ripping commercial music to mod well before MP3 arrived...
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Sure, just reduce the quality to 8bit 16KHz, chop it up into 64k sections, and put them one after the other in protracke
xeron, damn, you beat me to it :) .. We were ripping commercial music to mod well before MP3 arrived...
defbase: i sure do remember mono's 4 channel stuff, yep.
and, yep, they went mp3 just a couple of years after. :)
and, yep, they went mp3 just a couple of years after. :)
Jesus Christ people! the tracker was a TOOL (just as some people here) to make music on the early computers! It is not an ancient art of music creating!
You used trackers because they where available if you wanted to make music, you didn't have to fuck around with Akai samplers and such. It's a way of music making like any fucking other way, everybody saying it's some sort of 'lost art' is a fucking idiot!
And Zplex, the doctor called, he says you have Oldskooleritis and there is no cure!
You used trackers because they where available if you wanted to make music, you didn't have to fuck around with Akai samplers and such. It's a way of music making like any fucking other way, everybody saying it's some sort of 'lost art' is a fucking idiot!
And Zplex, the doctor called, he says you have Oldskooleritis and there is no cure!
Yes i'm quite certain too that if all the stuff today was suddenly available in 1987 Karsten Obarski wouldn't do Soundtracker and even if did, hardly anyone would use it anyway. Which i'm very happy there wasn't, as i like trackers.
I can partly agree on today's music quality, but that's just a matter of taste and has nothing to do with the stuff you use when making music.
Well, almost nothing, as with YM for example you usually have to concentrate on melody, due to limits of the soundchip. Which server my tastes well :)
But of course you can do all kind of melodies with modern stuff too. If someone wants to hear oldskool stuff done with trackers, then he/she can do that, 1000 tunes whenever he wants. I will keep doing them, if someone's interested anyway, heh.. I'm quite sure there will always be at least some prods featuring tracked music, so i wouldnt be worried about that.
But this whole conversation is kinda pointless. Do what you wanna do, using stuff you wanna use, dammit.
I can partly agree on today's music quality, but that's just a matter of taste and has nothing to do with the stuff you use when making music.
Well, almost nothing, as with YM for example you usually have to concentrate on melody, due to limits of the soundchip. Which server my tastes well :)
But of course you can do all kind of melodies with modern stuff too. If someone wants to hear oldskool stuff done with trackers, then he/she can do that, 1000 tunes whenever he wants. I will keep doing them, if someone's interested anyway, heh.. I'm quite sure there will always be at least some prods featuring tracked music, so i wouldnt be worried about that.
But this whole conversation is kinda pointless. Do what you wanna do, using stuff you wanna use, dammit.
Okkie, you're right - tracker is a tool.
Paintbrush is a tool as well.
Now, drop the brush from the history and give a pencils to all the painters. Would be today's culture exactly the same then? Think about it, you all.
Another thing I want to tell (not only) you, is about a talent. Somebody think that his (or anybody's) talent is more important then a tool. Well, if you like such way of thinking, I don't want to spoil your joy - let it be so. Artist's talent is more important then a tool, o'kay. Happy? Now:
Any single artist can't be more important then whole Culture. You should be a maniac if you can't agree with it. Artist is a part of culture, as a tool is. I not trying to compare values of artists and tools, I just want to say they acts together, and only this collaboration makes a cultural event. So, don't drop a tool as an unnecessary thing.
Surprise: tools lives much, much longer then artists. In some cases only tools can provide a culture (musical instruments of ancient civilizations, for example). So, be a good pair to your tool and make a cultural events with it.
It's not about trackers only. It's about putting a meaning of culture around your ego.
Paintbrush is a tool as well.
Now, drop the brush from the history and give a pencils to all the painters. Would be today's culture exactly the same then? Think about it, you all.
Another thing I want to tell (not only) you, is about a talent. Somebody think that his (or anybody's) talent is more important then a tool. Well, if you like such way of thinking, I don't want to spoil your joy - let it be so. Artist's talent is more important then a tool, o'kay. Happy? Now:
Any single artist can't be more important then whole Culture. You should be a maniac if you can't agree with it. Artist is a part of culture, as a tool is. I not trying to compare values of artists and tools, I just want to say they acts together, and only this collaboration makes a cultural event. So, don't drop a tool as an unnecessary thing.
Surprise: tools lives much, much longer then artists. In some cases only tools can provide a culture (musical instruments of ancient civilizations, for example). So, be a good pair to your tool and make a cultural events with it.
It's not about trackers only. It's about putting a meaning of culture around your ego.
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Haha, Ogge. Did you ever get THAT reaction?
Yes, I actually did. Twice! Same track! I guess that either I should doubt in my own ability, or I should doubt in everyone who has ever owned an amiga. Well.. The track isn't THAT bad... :(
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For me tracker music gives u the oppurtinity to use alot of techniques to create your own unique sound that u will have a hard time to do with sequencers. Sequencer dudes also known as mp3/ogg dickheads DO NOT use the oppurtinity to create their own identity mostly. They conform to a general sound that the society has defined, a political correct sound for the masses.
EMO!!!!
Seriously though; Yes - in order to preserve our cultural heritage I think we need to put down anyone who's creating anything using tools that was invented after 1689. Bach would cry if he saw y'all, I tell you! I'm gonna press "Submit" on this message, and then I'll carry my computer, my speaker system, and all other modern gadgets in my home to the scrapyard. I suggest y'all do the same!
Grr.
I give a shit, as long as it plays in WinAmp...
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And Zplex, the doctor called, he says you have Oldskooleritis and there is no cure!
Yes there is. We throw him in a dumpster and we shoot the dumpster into the sun.
What we need to do is stop arguing and start fighting. And here is the ultimate tool for that:
haven't read all the conversationm so sorry if I repeat something... First - tracker scene is almost dead now and everybody see that number of people who produce tracked music is lowing each year, and for demo and intro soundtracks their number is near zero. It is not good, because many people still like trackers stuff (like me).
Wouldn't it be great for everyone if old heros like Reed, KB and others will so to say (stupid joke) get their heads out of their asses and produce at least one module in a year? (like Skaven or Manwe for example)
Wouldn't it be great for everyone if old heros like Reed, KB and others will so to say (stupid joke) get their heads out of their asses and produce at least one module in a year? (like Skaven or Manwe for example)
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and produce at least one module in a year?
Should they sign a contract of doing "at least one mod a year"? Wouldn't that kill the whole idea of creativity=tracking?
This thread is lolled.
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tracker scene is almost dead now and everybody see that number of people who produce tracked music is lowing each year, and for demo and intro soundtracks their number is near zero
...but brs just released a disk full of tracked music... ;) maybe that wasn't the last one either :O
hehe, that reasoning is pathetic :D
it's like claiming that we should occassionally hunt for ducks ourselves in the wild + eat them raw instead of buying a burger at MacDonalds. solely cos it's part of our 'history'...
it's like claiming that we should occassionally hunt for ducks ourselves in the wild + eat them raw instead of buying a burger at MacDonalds. solely cos it's part of our 'history'...
Maali, you can eat plastic, polyethylene and gasoline to be truly modern man.
Never thought people can be so plain to mix history, progress and culture to the same bullshit and judge about it as yesterday's things are sucks because we already have newest today's things.
Never thought people can be so plain to mix history, progress and culture to the same bullshit and judge about it as yesterday's things are sucks because we already have newest today's things.
heh, can any of you faggot musicians play on either this:
or this:
If not, you don't know your history and or culture and your music sucks! you should at least make one overture on these babies per year, or we don't take you seriously!
or this:
If not, you don't know your history and or culture and your music sucks! you should at least make one overture on these babies per year, or we don't take you seriously!
manwe:
this is not the issue, the scene is much too inbred and unapproachable for non-scene musicians to get involved, at least in large numbers. then again, i'm also all for using tunes from musicians who aren't sceners as demo soundtracks, if the tune is good, if it fits the demo, and if you've got a permission to use it.
i agree, they WERE a huge part of scene culture... it just baffles me that you still claimed that a musician can only be great in the scene of today if he does tracker music. which is basically what your first post was about.
your reasoning isn't valid. there are painters (as in musicians) outside the scene as well, and they're doing a good job without ever having used a brush (as in a tracker). i don't see why those painters (as in musicians) couldn't get involved in the modern demoscene as well. unless you still think they'd need trackers to be hot shit.
yes.
i can't see anyone claiming that a tool is an "unnecessary thing". it's just that the tools get obsolete. it's not like people are still commonly painting on cave walls with animal blood either. any culture evolves, and this evolution has caused trackers to lose their purpose somewhat. this actually comes close to what dimouse said.
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You can release a scene music with modern tool? Very Well. Now, point to a good scene musician who never saw a tracker. If you will find more then one, please, count them all and compare the number with those musicians who where cool trackers. No any "ifs", just compare the facts.
this is not the issue, the scene is much too inbred and unapproachable for non-scene musicians to get involved, at least in large numbers. then again, i'm also all for using tunes from musicians who aren't sceners as demo soundtracks, if the tune is good, if it fits the demo, and if you've got a permission to use it.
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Again, I did not said "trackers roxx, mp3 suxx", you know (it was repeated ten times already, hope, it's clear now). I just say "we have a culture, we act according this culture, trackers where the huge part of scene culture, which made the influence on modern scene as well". That's it. Just history. No "ifs".
i agree, they WERE a huge part of scene culture... it just baffles me that you still claimed that a musician can only be great in the scene of today if he does tracker music. which is basically what your first post was about.
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Okkie, you're right - tracker is a tool. Paintbrush is a tool as well. Now, drop the brush from the history and give a pencils to all the painters. Would be today's culture exactly the same then? Think about it, you all.
your reasoning isn't valid. there are painters (as in musicians) outside the scene as well, and they're doing a good job without ever having used a brush (as in a tracker). i don't see why those painters (as in musicians) couldn't get involved in the modern demoscene as well. unless you still think they'd need trackers to be hot shit.
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Another thing I want to tell (not only) you, is about a talent. Somebody think that his (or anybody's) talent is more important then a tool. Well, if you like such way of thinking, I don't want to spoil your joy - let it be so. Artist's talent is more important then a tool, o'kay. Happy?
yes.
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Artist is a part of culture, as a tool is. I not trying to compare values of artists and tools, I just want to say they acts together, and only this collaboration makes a cultural event. So, don't drop a tool as an unnecessary thing. Surprise: tools lives much, much longer then artists. In some cases only tools can provide a culture (musical instruments of ancient civilizations, for example).
i can't see anyone claiming that a tool is an "unnecessary thing". it's just that the tools get obsolete. it's not like people are still commonly painting on cave walls with animal blood either. any culture evolves, and this evolution has caused trackers to lose their purpose somewhat. this actually comes close to what dimouse said.
dimouse:
demos in general are about achieving the best possible result in the current limitations. the limitation of 4ch modules was pretty much a hardware one. it's possible to achieve better results in an mp3, so why not use it?
i have produced at least one module per year, dickwad.
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tracker scene is almost dead now and everybody see that number of people who produce tracked music is lowing each year, and for demo and intro soundtracks their number is near zero.
demos in general are about achieving the best possible result in the current limitations. the limitation of 4ch modules was pretty much a hardware one. it's possible to achieve better results in an mp3, so why not use it?
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Wouldn't it be great for everyone if old heros like Reed, KB and others will so to say (stupid joke) get their heads out of their asses and produce at least one module in a year? (like Skaven or Manwe for example)
i have produced at least one module per year, dickwad.
... and the "m" in ".v2m" stands for "module". HAH.
zplex:
by 'dickheads', do you mean a) all musicians who release mp3's, b) scene musicians who release mp3's in demos, c) scene musicians who release mp3's otherwise?
i actually agree, to an extent. in the early 90's you had either a) cheesy amiga demopop á la mantronix/tip/firefox, influenced by italo/synthpop, b) cheesy amiga "funk" that only a few people managed to do properly, or c) cheesy euro"techno" which was just always too cheesy. i think it's more of a continuum though; back then if you were musically skilled and wanted to make music, you didn't have that many choices, so the aspiring musicians became part of the demoscene. these days you have choices not only for the tool you use, but also for the way of getting your music out there. the internet has of course helped in that. the demoscene is no longer something you have to get into in order to make art on your computer. this has resulted in a lack of variety in scene musicians, and in artists and designers as well. for outsiders, i have a feeling it's mostly coders who are attracted by the scene.
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Sequencer dudes also known as mp3/ogg dickheads DO NOT use the oppurtinity to create their own identity mostly. They conform to a general sound that the society has defined, a political correct sound for the masses.
by 'dickheads', do you mean a) all musicians who release mp3's, b) scene musicians who release mp3's in demos, c) scene musicians who release mp3's otherwise?
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Nowadays demo music is generally very boring compared to what the tracker music for the demos in the 90`s was.
i actually agree, to an extent. in the early 90's you had either a) cheesy amiga demopop á la mantronix/tip/firefox, influenced by italo/synthpop, b) cheesy amiga "funk" that only a few people managed to do properly, or c) cheesy euro"techno" which was just always too cheesy. i think it's more of a continuum though; back then if you were musically skilled and wanted to make music, you didn't have that many choices, so the aspiring musicians became part of the demoscene. these days you have choices not only for the tool you use, but also for the way of getting your music out there. the internet has of course helped in that. the demoscene is no longer something you have to get into in order to make art on your computer. this has resulted in a lack of variety in scene musicians, and in artists and designers as well. for outsiders, i have a feeling it's mostly coders who are attracted by the scene.
oh, modulez.org trolls in pouet's bbs!!
sweet!!
sweet!!
Reed:
In my opinion, a demo can contain no music at all - just sound effects and speech, like movies has (if it will works good with demo's concept). But there are only a few people who will like such soundtrack. Guess, you'll be not surprised: people in general didn't like "non-sceners" soundracks in demos as well, may be just because they want to see a familiar nickname in credits, may be by any other reason (no matter, just search in the comments the words "music rip-off"). You can send them all to suck a bolt, but almost nobody will left here then.
I prefer make no conflicts with masses. It's just doubtful modern rule "masses sucks". Ancient wisemen said "if masses found something in it, think twice before argue them, may be you just miss something important".
Okay, stay for a minute here, lift up our glasses of champagne for that :) They where, they where...
Yes, I did, but I fixed it already, by adding "and making demo music". Originally, I comented a musicdisk, so I told about musicdisks. Guess, you'll be disagree at this point again, but I'll better count a tracker or softsynth based musicdisk as a scene release, instead of 50 mb zip file with MP3s. May be because there is nothing special in a form (not content) of zip with MP3s, may be just because of habit. Tracked/softsynth musicdisks are scene phenomenon, you can't meet it nowhere else. May be I respect this. Didn't we always respect the scene for the things which can not be found nowhere else?
Anyway, in this example I told about whole culture, not just scene. Drop out the brush - you'll get another culture. Now, resize this example to the scene's scale: drop out a pixel graphics, and you'll get another scene! The same with trackers, you know. It can be good too, but it would be different. Fortunately, we had that pixel graphics, which even made an influence on whole modern media (web, tv, etc.). See no reason why can't we think about trackers in this way... But you shouldn't if you don't like :)
Of course, why not? Now, where they can came from? From a pop culture? If yes, let me draw a cross on the scene. From an underground? Scene is underground already (more or less) and some underground artists (painters, musicians, etc.) doing almost the same things which we doing. No problem, new talanted people are always welcome, but I have no idea why they need a demoscene if they already has their own scene. Anyway, it's all about a future, so many "ifs" here again, and I don't like even think about the things which can't be known, just guessed.
So. Let's invite non scene people and see what will left here :)
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i'm all for using tunes from musicians who aren't sceners as demo soundtracks, if the tune fits the demo
In my opinion, a demo can contain no music at all - just sound effects and speech, like movies has (if it will works good with demo's concept). But there are only a few people who will like such soundtrack. Guess, you'll be not surprised: people in general didn't like "non-sceners" soundracks in demos as well, may be just because they want to see a familiar nickname in credits, may be by any other reason (no matter, just search in the comments the words "music rip-off"). You can send them all to suck a bolt, but almost nobody will left here then.
I prefer make no conflicts with masses. It's just doubtful modern rule "masses sucks". Ancient wisemen said "if masses found something in it, think twice before argue them, may be you just miss something important".
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i agree, trackers WERE a huge part of scene culture
Okay, stay for a minute here, lift up our glasses of champagne for that :) They where, they where...
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you still claimed that a musician can only be great in the scene of today if he does tracker music. which is basically what your first post was about.
Yes, I did, but I fixed it already, by adding "and making demo music". Originally, I comented a musicdisk, so I told about musicdisks. Guess, you'll be disagree at this point again, but I'll better count a tracker or softsynth based musicdisk as a scene release, instead of 50 mb zip file with MP3s. May be because there is nothing special in a form (not content) of zip with MP3s, may be just because of habit. Tracked/softsynth musicdisks are scene phenomenon, you can't meet it nowhere else. May be I respect this. Didn't we always respect the scene for the things which can not be found nowhere else?
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Paintbrush is a tool as well. Now, drop out the brush from the history
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There are painters outside the scene as well, and they're doing a good job without ever having used a brush.
Anyway, in this example I told about whole culture, not just scene. Drop out the brush - you'll get another culture. Now, resize this example to the scene's scale: drop out a pixel graphics, and you'll get another scene! The same with trackers, you know. It can be good too, but it would be different. Fortunately, we had that pixel graphics, which even made an influence on whole modern media (web, tv, etc.). See no reason why can't we think about trackers in this way... But you shouldn't if you don't like :)
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i don't see why those painterscouldn't get involved in the modern demoscene as well.
Of course, why not? Now, where they can came from? From a pop culture? If yes, let me draw a cross on the scene. From an underground? Scene is underground already (more or less) and some underground artists (painters, musicians, etc.) doing almost the same things which we doing. No problem, new talanted people are always welcome, but I have no idea why they need a demoscene if they already has their own scene. Anyway, it's all about a future, so many "ifs" here again, and I don't like even think about the things which can't be known, just guessed.
So. Let's invite non scene people and see what will left here :)
The problem in the whole discussion, and that was only hinted at is that trackers were more a distribution media, and a good one at that, than a musical instrument. I mean, I'd rather pick a SID than a tracker. It's just some silly sample player really. It has not much HEART. At least not much worth fighting for from a musician's perspective.
I am not saying they were worthless, but trying to point out they are not playing in the same league as the electric guitar, the tb303, the SID or even the amen break.
Tracker's have nowhere dictated much or created much on their own *except* the concept of electronic musical distribution. Except maybe the retrig-filled drillcore ;)
Since I don't find much to defend for in the tracker as an instrument I would maybe try to compare it from afar to the standardized western notation for music. Which I think is hardly significant when trying (what a pointless exercise) to compare musicians or attach them to a cultural phenomenom.
I am not saying they were worthless, but trying to point out they are not playing in the same league as the electric guitar, the tb303, the SID or even the amen break.
Tracker's have nowhere dictated much or created much on their own *except* the concept of electronic musical distribution. Except maybe the retrig-filled drillcore ;)
Since I don't find much to defend for in the tracker as an instrument I would maybe try to compare it from afar to the standardized western notation for music. Which I think is hardly significant when trying (what a pointless exercise) to compare musicians or attach them to a cultural phenomenom.
And of course another significant part of trackers were to show/enable music creation on computers with an output that might comparable to other more expensive modes of production.
Tracker talibans rule!
Trackers are a really good learning tool, and TBH I prefer writing / drum programming on trackers.. the trouble is, music is constantly changing, people are looking for different things. People used to want melodies and not care so much for the actual sound of the instrument, now we want good sounds and don't care so much for melodies.
