you suck! (bashing demos...)
category: general [glöplog]
the thing here is more about story and abstract demos...
both of'em can be cool, but neither of'em is the only way to heaven...
repetition? of course, but we have dozens of portraits painted, dozens of musics composed, dozens of houses built with the repetition of what already has been made by someone or else.
repetition itself is not a problem as long as you add something new, or as long as you use repetition - or style-copying - to learn and evolve...
both of'em can be cool, but neither of'em is the only way to heaven...
repetition? of course, but we have dozens of portraits painted, dozens of musics composed, dozens of houses built with the repetition of what already has been made by someone or else.
repetition itself is not a problem as long as you add something new, or as long as you use repetition - or style-copying - to learn and evolve...
does anybody really READ those 80 lines long long posts?
Let me get a magnifying glass so i can read this mumbo jumbo.
i'd rather read a nice scrolltext
Inopia: I think Optimus does.
actually, this sucks.
ok - I take your points. Demoscene 'art' isn't the same as say as the design of a house. Surrealism was an attempt to challenge conventional art - in fact it challeneged alot of the 'establishment' of the time becuase it threw into question religion, law, order and society. The fact it was art was almost secondary to the thought process behind it.
Demoscene demo's are currently very. very good to show through video-projectors at nightclubs - I owe a debt of thanks to people like Fudge who produced the demos with maximumn 'wow' four years ago when I was doint that kind of thing.
However, what I was trying to get at was that although technically the mechanics of a demo were enough of a thrill ten years ago to watch in gobstruck awe, in 2003 they won't be. In 2003 I'm hoping to see more thought and cohesion to the presentation I'm seeing.
I used the idea of game intro's as an example. The point I was making got lost I think. That point is that the unique difficulty of getting everything to work in a way that was pleasing, thought provoking or just plain wierd went hand in hand with a final presentation. For example, check out the intro sequence to RayMan2 on the N64 - lovely isn't it ;)
Now I'm not saying everyone should rush out and do this exact thing, but the point is that the telling of the story is a technical feat in itself which we can all appreciate, but the end result is a beutiful presentation of skill and style that holds my attention.
Personally I think the problem is organisation. I'm not sure if you can expect or ask a group of demo makers to sit down and plan something that may take six months to produce - it's a far harder concept to prove.
I wonder sometimes if there is more creativity in your average flash demo.... For example, have you ever been to these web sites;
http://www.rathergood.com
http://www.b3ta.com
Now if only there could be some ind of mixing of the minds - that would be good, really really good.
Demoscene demo's are currently very. very good to show through video-projectors at nightclubs - I owe a debt of thanks to people like Fudge who produced the demos with maximumn 'wow' four years ago when I was doint that kind of thing.
However, what I was trying to get at was that although technically the mechanics of a demo were enough of a thrill ten years ago to watch in gobstruck awe, in 2003 they won't be. In 2003 I'm hoping to see more thought and cohesion to the presentation I'm seeing.
I used the idea of game intro's as an example. The point I was making got lost I think. That point is that the unique difficulty of getting everything to work in a way that was pleasing, thought provoking or just plain wierd went hand in hand with a final presentation. For example, check out the intro sequence to RayMan2 on the N64 - lovely isn't it ;)
Now I'm not saying everyone should rush out and do this exact thing, but the point is that the telling of the story is a technical feat in itself which we can all appreciate, but the end result is a beutiful presentation of skill and style that holds my attention.
Personally I think the problem is organisation. I'm not sure if you can expect or ask a group of demo makers to sit down and plan something that may take six months to produce - it's a far harder concept to prove.
I wonder sometimes if there is more creativity in your average flash demo.... For example, have you ever been to these web sites;
http://www.rathergood.com
http://www.b3ta.com
Now if only there could be some ind of mixing of the minds - that would be good, really really good.
Please evil_sock, those websites was really horrible! If demos even come close to looking anything like that I'd rather me an amish. You talk about organisation and to put 6 months in making a demo? People doing game intros get paid for doing that, sceners don't. Isn't it nicer if people do what they wan't instead of making bad "movie-flyby-poetic" crap just because that's what they are supposed to do?
erm, you've missed my point again. The things shown in those websites are ideas without the technical skill!
You guys have the brains, skill and power to take those 'different' ideas and make somethjing new!
I'm not trying to tell people what to do, say or create but rather that unless you innovate and take new ideas as the central design core then you will only be looking over your shoulder at was has already gone before.
Tell me of better demos than the Amiga 'Insanity' demo, 'Jesus on E's' or Front242 ? I just don't see them. All I see is more colour, mp3 instead of XM and lots of fighting ;)
Of course it will take six months or so to produce a high quality demo that uses some of the better ideas shown in the website links - the problem as I see isn't that 'payed hands' do Game intro's and the demoscene guys therefore do whatever they like, but rather that the demands of producing something as polished as say the 'Rayman2' intro on the N64 are too much for the traditional setup of demoscene groups - maybe this is why we only see the same old trite by yet another demoscene group.
Give me Fairlight, sprites in the border and the Mighty Bog any day of the week - I'll check back in 2 years time and see if your all still producing the same old Amiga demo's :))
You guys have the brains, skill and power to take those 'different' ideas and make somethjing new!
I'm not trying to tell people what to do, say or create but rather that unless you innovate and take new ideas as the central design core then you will only be looking over your shoulder at was has already gone before.
Tell me of better demos than the Amiga 'Insanity' demo, 'Jesus on E's' or Front242 ? I just don't see them. All I see is more colour, mp3 instead of XM and lots of fighting ;)
Of course it will take six months or so to produce a high quality demo that uses some of the better ideas shown in the website links - the problem as I see isn't that 'payed hands' do Game intro's and the demoscene guys therefore do whatever they like, but rather that the demands of producing something as polished as say the 'Rayman2' intro on the N64 are too much for the traditional setup of demoscene groups - maybe this is why we only see the same old trite by yet another demoscene group.
Give me Fairlight, sprites in the border and the Mighty Bog any day of the week - I'll check back in 2 years time and see if your all still producing the same old Amiga demo's :))
evil_sock: if you're seeing the same things over and over again you're probably not following the right groups...
yes front242 demos are very original *cough*
The Front242 demo I was talking about was famous for getting all the video (with huge compression) onto a single diskette.
seconding sagacity... remove the dirt you have in your eyes and start looking elsewhere ;)
but it's true the scene's kinda desesperating in a way, productions overall have good technical quality but next to nil "human" quality .. (mostly because of poor narrative -which is what most people like, but also due to over-nerdish or teenager topics)
but it's true the scene's kinda desesperating in a way, productions overall have good technical quality but next to nil "human" quality .. (mostly because of poor narrative -which is what most people like, but also due to over-nerdish or teenager topics)
>>video (with huge compression)
unique concept... *cough*
unique concept... *cough*
I went to rathergood.com in good faith and ended up watching a 3 frame kitten animation playing to a vines tune.
hmmmm.
hmmmm.
evil_sock: the problem with story-based demos or whatever is that, as stated by some ppl here before, (most) sceners are, quite basically, extremely horrible storytellers when it comes to 'traditional' means of storytelling (film-like / text/poetry / spoken)...
what the fuck is everybody bitching about? grow up and get a life.
I give in - you plainly understand what is wrong with 'the scene' but you are not prepared to do anything about it.
It will take one group - just one group to come produce a ripping yarn of a demo and the rest of you will be scambling to join them :/
Don't you have any links to money via sponsership? Why aren't you addressing these problems with the same technique as you produce your 3d floaty objects? (or maybe you do...)
Condemed to a future of whirling spinny things with a few flash/strobe effects ? Go check out what's left of the Dreamcast programming scene (http://dcemulation.com) - feet-of-fury for example and ask them why they bother to put so much effort into a dead platform? Or perhaps the guys who ported a PocketPC DivX player, DreamSnes, Mame or even Linux / BSD for Dreamcast!
Why did anybody bother to make free tools like Pike when you can rip the M$ WindowsCE 3D tools / libs?
Innovation, evolution, challenge, success.
The 'demos' at rathergood.com should challenge your perception of 'what is good' - it's easy to look at three kittens playing to the tune of a Vines song and think 'what crap' - however, keep digging in there and you will see that it is the idea *not* the execution that is king for these people.
The future of demoscene groups (for me anyway) is to see a 'storyteller' as a vital cog in the wheel - imagine if the modeller, the graphics artist and the muscian each knew what bit they had to produce with the 'storyteller' keeping it all together so it fits?
The last 'new' demo thing that I saw was the model of the 'drunken baby' - 3D StudioMax trickery I believe - shamelessly abused until the idea was old, but it *was* a new idea.
Just take a look at the DooM3 intro from the leaked E3 Alpha release - heh, the intro's to Tekken(x), Resident Evil or even Spanky's Quest ;) - is there not a single idea in there that inspires people to do something new and push boundries?
It will take one group - just one group to come produce a ripping yarn of a demo and the rest of you will be scambling to join them :/
Don't you have any links to money via sponsership? Why aren't you addressing these problems with the same technique as you produce your 3d floaty objects? (or maybe you do...)
Condemed to a future of whirling spinny things with a few flash/strobe effects ? Go check out what's left of the Dreamcast programming scene (http://dcemulation.com) - feet-of-fury for example and ask them why they bother to put so much effort into a dead platform? Or perhaps the guys who ported a PocketPC DivX player, DreamSnes, Mame or even Linux / BSD for Dreamcast!
Why did anybody bother to make free tools like Pike when you can rip the M$ WindowsCE 3D tools / libs?
Innovation, evolution, challenge, success.
The 'demos' at rathergood.com should challenge your perception of 'what is good' - it's easy to look at three kittens playing to the tune of a Vines song and think 'what crap' - however, keep digging in there and you will see that it is the idea *not* the execution that is king for these people.
The future of demoscene groups (for me anyway) is to see a 'storyteller' as a vital cog in the wheel - imagine if the modeller, the graphics artist and the muscian each knew what bit they had to produce with the 'storyteller' keeping it all together so it fits?
The last 'new' demo thing that I saw was the model of the 'drunken baby' - 3D StudioMax trickery I believe - shamelessly abused until the idea was old, but it *was* a new idea.
Just take a look at the DooM3 intro from the leaked E3 Alpha release - heh, the intro's to Tekken(x), Resident Evil or even Spanky's Quest ;) - is there not a single idea in there that inspires people to do something new and push boundries?
yep, DooM3 intro gave me the idea of shooting all the people in the face with a shotgun, who are not happy with flat-shaded cubes, dutch cholor scheme, ambient music, and rotating tori... :)
evil_sock: yes, ripping the dancing baby model from 3dsmax is the epitome of scene-spirit. good point. you obviously know what you are talking about.
1) Please read my post again, now go read it one last time. (Proceed to point 2)
2)Do you understand the point I'm making?
(If true proceed to point 3 else point 1 - shit that could produce an loop of death scenario....)
3)Attempt to intelligently expand on the points raised
(If you really have a problem - I'll meet you anytime on a blueyonder or gamedomain server for a bout of MP RtCW) ;)
2)Do you understand the point I'm making?
(If true proceed to point 3 else point 1 - shit that could produce an loop of death scenario....)
3)Attempt to intelligently expand on the points raised
(If you really have a problem - I'll meet you anytime on a blueyonder or gamedomain server for a bout of MP RtCW) ;)
rereading your posts negates any possibilities for intelligent discussion, since that would require an intelligent argument.
And yet you attempt to avoid the issues raised by attacking me personally without regard for the truth.
I refer you to point one.
I refer you to point one.
nono, I'm not attacking you personally (although I would if you wanted me to), I'm just saying your argument stinks:
"you plainly understand what is wrong with 'the scene' but you are not prepared to do anything about it."
I'm not sure who you are referring to here, but this is not the case for most people.
"It will take one group - just one group to come produce a ripping yarn of a demo and the rest of you will be scambling to join them"
Nah. There wasn't a queue at the door when Bomb released Eden, or when Popsy Team showed us VIP2.
"Innovation, evolution, challenge, success"
"The future of demoscene groups (for me anyway) is to see a 'storyteller' as a vital cog in the wheel."
Storydemos are nothing new. If you are referring to 'abstract' storytellers, those people are called designers. They've been around for yonks. And you proclaim evolution... isn't that taking stuff that already exists and spinning it around? Something which you hate? ("All I see is more colour, mp3 instead of XM")
So anyway.
"you plainly understand what is wrong with 'the scene' but you are not prepared to do anything about it."
I'm not sure who you are referring to here, but this is not the case for most people.
"It will take one group - just one group to come produce a ripping yarn of a demo and the rest of you will be scambling to join them"
Nah. There wasn't a queue at the door when Bomb released Eden, or when Popsy Team showed us VIP2.
"Innovation, evolution, challenge, success"
"The future of demoscene groups (for me anyway) is to see a 'storyteller' as a vital cog in the wheel."
Storydemos are nothing new. If you are referring to 'abstract' storytellers, those people are called designers. They've been around for yonks. And you proclaim evolution... isn't that taking stuff that already exists and spinning it around? Something which you hate? ("All I see is more colour, mp3 instead of XM")
So anyway.
Without input of your own and negative critisism for my trouble, I assume you are defending the indefensible.
How can you defend the art of creation by statistic? To categorise art into neat boxes in the hope of defeating a discussion based on innovation and evolution is hopeless.
The points raised aren't 'mine' specfically, I have raised them here for sure, but you undermine your own scene by clearly putting limits on creativity.
How can you defend the art of creation by statistic? To categorise art into neat boxes in the hope of defeating a discussion based on innovation and evolution is hopeless.
The points raised aren't 'mine' specfically, I have raised them here for sure, but you undermine your own scene by clearly putting limits on creativity.