pouët.net

I'll say it again then, shall I? selfish.

Wishing that the scene would rather die than seeing it evolve is such a selfish and self-destructive attitude. It should also be noted that js1k as discussed above is in fact NOT a scene activity, it's just something that attracts sceners too - and you make that out to be a bad thing.

i'd rather call it self-destructive to be preoccupied with whoring for "new blood" at all cost, hence the attitude. and it certainly IS self-destructive to declare evolving into any direction as good per se.

and selfish as i am, with every party i support, i strictly support and work for those bits which i like (and that even includes some recent evolvements) and vote and steer against what i don't. oops, guess that makes every scener i met so far a selfish asshole, they all do that crap :(


i was not particulary referring to that. such events are fine, they just have nothing that connects them to "scene", imho. and ofcourse i am not crazy enough to call it bad if sceners take part in non scene activities. i also love (certain kinds) of artsy short movies - but that doesnt mean that i want to see them in a demo competition. i like some good old wagner, but if i go to a rock concert i want some fucking rock'n'roll.

if you guys spent your time doing demos instead of analyzing and debating we would have a fucking ace scene, that i know for sure :)

panta: we do that too :)

There wouldn't been any need to speak of the demoscene, if it had been sth else, would it?

all the scene has to do to attract new blood is to create amazing, inspiring, brilliant productions. everything else - outreach efforts, beginner compos - are sideshows.

Smash has leading.

The scene is big enough to self regulate against bullshit. Bring in the javascript coders, if they're doing something amazing what's the problem? There are loads of movements in the scene from 4k procedural graphics to FPGA code and that diversity is awesome.

I enjoyed the article a lot. About the direction of the scene, the way I see it most people understand why Monet didn't just use a camera, they appreciate his skill because the painters tools and media are widely understood. It's harder for people to understand the complexities of the demoscene because of its black box nature, and that makes it difficult for them to appreciate the result.

So for the scene to progress it needs to branch out from the core model of a hackers dick waving contest and become more serious about winning people over with the artistic side. That doesn't mean the technical side should get less effort, it just means it's less explicit and more tightly integrated with the art. This is exactly what Fairlight seem to be doing, and it is the direction I think the scene will gradually go.

I don't agree with the idea of beginner-compos and everyone-else-compos, I think that a nice skill gradient appears proportional to party size. Beginners should work at owning the smaller parties and work up the chain, and all parties should do more regional outreach focused on their country.

Smash: all well and good, but those amazing, inspiring, brilliant productions can be demotivating too. It sometimes feels like no matter how much I improve, the goalposts are moving faster than I am.

I'm not saying stop making them of course, just that we need to keep things accessible for those beginners too. Just thinking here, but other 'competitive sports' have different levels, like the football leagues. It'd be pretty motivating for beginners to have a good chance at winning the little league, then aiming to dominate the juniors the following year :)

Anyway, back to learning the mysteries of opengl.

"Get off my lawn!"

psonice: i thought that, but now I'm not sure emphasising/regulating the competitive aspect more is the best route. The smaller parties already provide a venue for smaller or newer groups.

Beginner compos - that's one of the things I suggested in my Hugi #36 article "We Need More Newbies". Another one was to be nicer towards beginners and "lamers".

Nahhh... Split the scene and you will have a bunch of people complaining that it died back to 90s and so on... IMHO the average hardcore scener should at least be willing to understand that there are always going to be newbies on the scene and that he/she can't always expect the best or top results from a newly found group... or maybe not?

Adok: you and Magic just can't help spamming about Hugi in every single thread, can you?

Also, way to make your point about newcomers Adok, with a fake account: http://www.pouet.net/topic.php?which=7640

So your beginner compos would be all about known sceners using fake nicknames?

one of the things I like the most about the demoscene is this very agressive yet friendly competition spirit. If you see one of the big demos from ASD or Flt, but you get discouraged instead of motivated cause "I can do better, and I'm gonna prove it", then, in a way, you don't deserve to be up there in the podium with them anyway. Things take time, tho, you cannot go from Nehe Lesson 1 to WinBreakpoint in one year - it's more like 6 or 7. So, sometimes, instead of people being intimidated but the big demos groups, I wonder if they are not just being too ... hm... impatience.

If my aim was to be "numero uno" in my hobbies, i probably wouldn't have any hobbies at all.

Just having fun and getting inspired to "get off my ass and do something" is more than enough for starters.

One of the things I like most about the demoscene is that you get to meet alot of skilled / inspiring people in rather unformal settings, some of which even ends up as friends.

(iq: come to kindergarden!) :D

yes, but it is my understanding that those geting discouraged is becuase they want to be "numero uno", and they believe (wrongly, and prematurely) that they can't. If they didn't have this competition will, why would the be disencouraged about anyway?

So in either way it should be a good thing to compete all together, rather cause you don't mind competition and just wanna share big screen with the rest of the sceners (like you) or cause you wanna slowly work to beat the big guys. That's why I'm 100% with Gloom about "beginner's competition" to be a really very bad idea...

remember when everyone said he 'scene' would end 'cos groups started using MP3s in demos ?

did it end ? ...

Adok: beginner parties would confine newbies in a playpen. It's better to be open and allow them to progress along a gradient than wall them in.

I don't agree that the scene is cruel to newbies although I can see why you think it is. The first demo I contributed anything to was shown at sundown, and the response it got was encouraging, so I guess it's about doing something decent and choosing the right party.

I'd like to see some better communication within the scene. Pouet or scene.org would benefit from bringing in some of the old ojuice.net's focus on getting people together. Right now it's just a podium.

hehe lucky you! My first demo (a 64k intro in the 97) crashed in front of all the Euskal audience (made of >4000 people these days, can't tell how big it was at the time). It was shown last, and when it crashed everybody guffawed. It got last position, and because it didn't have sound (i had no idea of how to ake sound, and there i didn't have internetssss to learn) people said it was crap. so what. you just have to learn to take things for what they are, and that's it, this is just a hobby. And if you want to really fight, then just keep working (note, next year Murci and I won the 64k compo at Euskal!).

We should make possible for every beginner to learn, we should encourage them, but we should also let them work their path by themselves and not keep them in a kindergarden, make a test, and see if they can go into the "next level" or anything like that, c'mon. I don´t like leagues, let's play all together, no?

ofcourse, a "beginners compo" is a totally retared idea all over. When starting out, I found a joy in just being a part of the show, up there, with the big guys.

"Who needs a beginner compo? - I didn't" is a non-argument. Firstly, this whole conversation is about whether the environment for a beginner in 2010 is less inviting than it was for us old farts, and there are good reasons for believing that it is (higher bar to contributing at a respected level, more alternative communities).

Secondly, you're part of a self-selecting sample. You're here on Pouet as an active demoscener, so obviously you weren't put off by whatever roadblocks were in your way as a beginner. But is that experience shared by the majority, or are you the one-in-a-hundred exception, or one-in-a-million?

a beginners compo is patronising, not encouraging.

gasman: hey, this isn't a hobby for _everyone_.

The secret for beginners is to release at small parties with little to no competition. I know I did and it was pretty cool to win the 1st price with something that most likely wouldn't have been shown on Assembly's big screen. :P So what I'm saying is: As long as there are small parties around, you can compete in a slightly more forgiving and less demanding environment and don't need to worry too much about being lame and a decade of experience behind the scene superstars. :)