Re: Which was the first demoscene demo?
category: general [glöplog]
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The Clavilux, or Color Organ
which reminds me of the awesomeness of this - which is "demo-ish": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXkEL-X3zXs
Yes, also great and old stuff. I think I havent seen this before. Thanx for posting the link
https://youtu.be/iwVu2BWLZqA?t=228 early Demogroup at work.
Creonix, thanks for the insight, fascinating stuff.
I just remembered Oskar Fischinger, who was one of the early adopters of abstract animation in the 1930s. Check this out: https://youtu.be/xGHPWLrNbAM - it has cubes, coder colours, pbr lighting/materials, and super tight sync. Pretty demoish if you ask me (just imagine some kicking dnb instead of the original soundtrack)
I just remembered Oskar Fischinger, who was one of the early adopters of abstract animation in the 1930s. Check this out: https://youtu.be/xGHPWLrNbAM - it has cubes, coder colours, pbr lighting/materials, and super tight sync. Pretty demoish if you ask me (just imagine some kicking dnb instead of the original soundtrack)
oh, other stuff turned up while I was banging google. thanks wertstahl!
This thread still alive? Good. But I would like it to be about our demoscene and when it started. Facts. Released demos by groups.
In short, when "here's this thing" became "here's this thing that we made" that got spread.
In short, when "here's this thing" became "here's this thing that we made" that got spread.
But seriously.
But seriously.
The answer will not fall from the sky without broad research.
But seriously.
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind...
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Fact: even with (seemingly) strict constraints it is COMPLETELY impossible to define *THE* first "demoscene demo". I'd guess no one would dispute that at this point.
However, it may very well be viable to declare A POINT IN TIME (say, month) during which a majority of "computer freak" stuff was mostly being released conforming to (somehow) accepted "demoscene" constraints X, Y, Z and beyond.
Will this specify the "first demo ever"? Most likely not. Is it at least culturally/historically interesting and a valid point to continue one's research on? Fuck yeah!
The question becomes, how do you define these constraints? I believe many attributes have already been laid out in this discussion, but obviously there is no 100% correct answer. This is the actually interesting part of the work to be donw.
I don't think it's impossible. It may turn out to be impossible, after some detective work, but we would have a handful of demos, one of which is likely the first.
As stated, the criteria may yield the second demo because some reference to the demoscene that became our demoscene is needed to separate it from the crack intro, PD, computer club etc scenes.
If the general consensus is that demos came from crack intros, there may be a prod generally considered a demo that was spread for its own sake; for what was made. Spread just for watching, as we do today. This demo may have referenced a prod that is not preserved or a group that dissolved. Then that's as good as it gets.
For me it's a matter of tracing the demos back in time until there's a stop (only other stuff spread before, but now also demos got spread) or a gap (on the other side of which may lay a legit demoscene, just one that didn't carry over to ours). I would be happy with finding the start of ours. But other early stuff is also interesting. But then I'd feel I went off topic.
So far, I would say we've traced demos back to about 85-86. I'm sort of not surprised, because that's when lots of teenagers learned to be creative with them. But there were home computers earlier, and still inside this home computer boom that USA never got. I think the Acorn BBC is a great candidate for bridging the stop/gap that seems to be there.
Was there a BBC demoscene before 1986?
But seriously.
Unfortunately all the other scenes except Commodore failed yet to deliver any examples. Which is a pity.
Regarding the fact that probably the Altair was the first "personal computer" which also attracted sort of a scene of enthusiasts and even hackers who expanded (hacked) the unit to expanded usability https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8znuGj_yUY and taking into regard that shortly after the Altair there was an explosion of derivatives and parallel developments, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hzyw6W_njls and taking into account the numbers of sold units and certain https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_ShwO10d6g cultural events, the question still remains why after the release of the Sinclair computers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9dHI6EwWTU it still took some time for the lone wolves (developers) to form a pack, and out of that the wish to compete (see Hip-Hop/Gang battling). Because Artists usually like to be lone wolves. I believe Rio Reiser also wrote about that. And actually this is the reason why Demoscene is not connected to the Computer Art scene, because we are computer artists and not Artists who use the computer domain https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwYskTUVobo - much like an automobile tuner enthusiast club. So. Unless we dig up some stuff from the Sinclair side of the scene, all the talk about Compunet and early BBS days is fine but.. If there is no record of it, it probably was not released. And that is one thing the demoscene is about. The release. (Correct me if i am wrong, *please* and perhaps just try to be constructive.)
Probably it were the developer tools available that made the breakthrough happen... https://youtu.be/I9dHI6EwWTU?t=2035. Remember when you turned your C64 on? *a.n.y.o.n.e* could work with that machine. It was as simple as a typewriter. The first demoscene demo might be a C64 BASIC demo... Real hardware Keyboard, affordable for many, 3rd wave of homecomputers, standard VCR output, US, UK and Europe spread... And a come-together of time, technology, socio-culture, marketing power. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJqsDqHtGKM
The Compunet stuff is documented in published magazines like ZZAP!64. But honestly the 'first' demoscene demo will probably have come from one of the cracker guys doing a spin-off production from their usual habits. (I'd assume a music or picture rip because that's closer to what they were already doing) I've found a bunch of music rips from those early days that have that crossover, and personally I think that's where the scene started evolving from rather than finding a 'this is the demoscene' moment.
I can think of lots of earlier visual demos (the Commodore Pet petscii animations, Apple 2 gfx demos etc.) but you can't really lump them in with the demoscene because where's the overlap? As you've acknowledged it's the same as saying the old '70s CGI stuff is 'early demoscene'. The goals and culture aren't there in the same way even if they share some visual traits. Demos from then are loud, boastful, some of them are visually gaudy but they have a collective style and outlook even if it was subconciously happening over time. Pulling from video games, TV, movies, trying to maybe replicate something they've seen in an arcade game or elsewhere but the technical limitations mean it ends up as something more abstract and sometimes a defining effect for the scene in general.
For a lot of early productions having as much on screen as possible or art/audio from the latest games or something technical that would force the look of the visuals was the aesthetic choice. Why is this area of the screen grey? Why is the logo in monochrome? Why does the picture have nothing to do with the music? I love this, it's a defining mindset point that seperates it out from an art movement which has a defined set of goals from the start. There's a raw energy to that early era.
While the design-era of the early '90s did start to reign in some of those choices, other groups still embraced the older style but evolved deeper meaning and purpose into productions, such as the brilliant Panoramic Designs. Anyway I'm rambling at this point.
I can think of lots of earlier visual demos (the Commodore Pet petscii animations, Apple 2 gfx demos etc.) but you can't really lump them in with the demoscene because where's the overlap? As you've acknowledged it's the same as saying the old '70s CGI stuff is 'early demoscene'. The goals and culture aren't there in the same way even if they share some visual traits. Demos from then are loud, boastful, some of them are visually gaudy but they have a collective style and outlook even if it was subconciously happening over time. Pulling from video games, TV, movies, trying to maybe replicate something they've seen in an arcade game or elsewhere but the technical limitations mean it ends up as something more abstract and sometimes a defining effect for the scene in general.
For a lot of early productions having as much on screen as possible or art/audio from the latest games or something technical that would force the look of the visuals was the aesthetic choice. Why is this area of the screen grey? Why is the logo in monochrome? Why does the picture have nothing to do with the music? I love this, it's a defining mindset point that seperates it out from an art movement which has a defined set of goals from the start. There's a raw energy to that early era.
While the design-era of the early '90s did start to reign in some of those choices, other groups still embraced the older style but evolved deeper meaning and purpose into productions, such as the brilliant Panoramic Designs. Anyway I'm rambling at this point.
i think 4mat has a strong point and that the "road to demoscene" is plattered with a lot of demos that have been done in other contexts than demoparty competitions.
4mat: If that's a ramble then it's one of the better rambles I've seen. :)
About "excluding" very early stuff. The criteria are written so that absolutely our demoscene could owe its roots to Apple II, BBC, PC. The gap could be bridged by sceners in that demoscene (if it was there) releasing again.
But if no articles (Compunet, press, whatever) talk about groups, handles, releases, compos etc, at least some things common to the demoscene as we know it, then we're looking for something that wasn't there, and there's no gap to bridge.
Why this subject interests me is that on the surface you could just settle for some '86 C64 demo and stop digging. But the rules are there to be agnostic about it and allow any demo that meets the criteria to have been the first demoscene demo. If there was a demoscene as we know it, and there was a demo as we know it, and it was spread just for watching it, it's definitely worth suggesting.
The very early stuff like homebrew, oscilloscope games, suprisingly modern computer uses in the 1960s with Douglas Engelbart... love all that good stuff. :)
But they're not demos, so those suggestions would be great for a thread on pioneering hardware and software, and general retro goodness. I might make a thread like that actually :)
About "excluding" very early stuff. The criteria are written so that absolutely our demoscene could owe its roots to Apple II, BBC, PC. The gap could be bridged by sceners in that demoscene (if it was there) releasing again.
But if no articles (Compunet, press, whatever) talk about groups, handles, releases, compos etc, at least some things common to the demoscene as we know it, then we're looking for something that wasn't there, and there's no gap to bridge.
Why this subject interests me is that on the surface you could just settle for some '86 C64 demo and stop digging. But the rules are there to be agnostic about it and allow any demo that meets the criteria to have been the first demoscene demo. If there was a demoscene as we know it, and there was a demo as we know it, and it was spread just for watching it, it's definitely worth suggesting.
The very early stuff like homebrew, oscilloscope games, suprisingly modern computer uses in the 1960s with Douglas Engelbart... love all that good stuff. :)
But they're not demos, so those suggestions would be great for a thread on pioneering hardware and software, and general retro goodness. I might make a thread like that actually :)
I think Steven Dompier's "Music of a soft" demo for the Altair 8800 was the first scene demo. Here's why:
The Homebrew Computer Club could be considered a scene at the time (1975). It even had a Party Invite. Steve Dompier released the music "Fool on the Hill" and "Daisy" using the Altair and a radio at the 4th meeting of the Homebrew Computer Club.
Dompier's release was published under PCC or People's Computer Company. PCC could be considered his group. Their logo had a dragon on it. Dompier is listed as a member on page 1. The altair release is on pages 8 and 9. There wasn't any reason to use handles at the time. I think handles later became necessary to hide your identity for cracking software.
I think Dompier's release meets this requirement. He showed off computer hardware and software at a regular gathering of like-minded individuals doing something it wasn't intended for.
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2. It must be released for the demoscene, small as it may have been then. (Not demoing a product, not an ad for a PD company, etc.)
The Homebrew Computer Club could be considered a scene at the time (1975). It even had a Party Invite. Steve Dompier released the music "Fool on the Hill" and "Daisy" using the Altair and a radio at the 4th meeting of the Homebrew Computer Club.
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3. Authors must have chosen handles to be known by (credits) within that demoscene, and part of a group (=2 or more members).
Dompier's release was published under PCC or People's Computer Company. PCC could be considered his group. Their logo had a dragon on it. Dompier is listed as a member on page 1. The altair release is on pages 8 and 9. There wasn't any reason to use handles at the time. I think handles later became necessary to hide your identity for cracking software.
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1. Self-contained purpose - to show what you worked on and what you can produce. (Just as today.)
I think Dompier's release meets this requirement. He showed off computer hardware and software at a regular gathering of like-minded individuals doing something it wasn't intended for.
luis: where on the altair 8800's screen did you see the greetings? \o/
maybe it would be a good idea to look for the first compo. I'd also include a ranking in a usenet post or a diskmag.
there were demos way before compos.
luis yes it's a scene but it's not the same scene. demos are a spin-off of the cracking scene.
luis yes it's a scene but it's not the same scene. demos are a spin-off of the cracking scene.
sorry, that should have been "mostly a spin-off of the cracking scene".
4mat, it's a question of definition. one could argue that cometition is a requirement for demos being "demoscene demos".