Why demoscene graphics aren't so cool?
category: general [glöplog]
FLAME OOOON!!!
As usual, it's all relative. Simple truth: Art is in the eye of the beholder.
I agree that technically, most scene artists might not be on par with the "professionals". But that's exactly _because_ we're not professionals - if we were, we would try to make money with our stuff and most likely wouldn't have the time to contribute to the scene.
Sad, but that's the truth. Nonetheless, I'm personally very happy and feel privileged to watch the works of Saffron, Nitrik, Visualice, Made, Destop et al. Because, even though us scene pixellers might be considered "simple" technically, we _do_ have the power to the desired emotions into our work. We _are_ able to swoop people off their feet with imaginativity and creativity.
And no, we don't need technically perfect wizards-warriors-wolves-chinesegirls to do that - we _can_ go a few steps further... personally, I even think that scene art evolved in a better way than most conventional (aka commercial) art - because those are too simple "by concept", we can go "deeper", more "abstract" as the scene audience is a more mature audience, or so I think :). But this might be too bold a statement...
Anyway, any way you put it, scene art will always be inferior to the other artform _you_ deem superior. Expect others to disagree ;). Ciao,
Vince.
I agree that technically, most scene artists might not be on par with the "professionals". But that's exactly _because_ we're not professionals - if we were, we would try to make money with our stuff and most likely wouldn't have the time to contribute to the scene.
Sad, but that's the truth. Nonetheless, I'm personally very happy and feel privileged to watch the works of Saffron, Nitrik, Visualice, Made, Destop et al. Because, even though us scene pixellers might be considered "simple" technically, we _do_ have the power to the desired emotions into our work. We _are_ able to swoop people off their feet with imaginativity and creativity.
And no, we don't need technically perfect wizards-warriors-wolves-chinesegirls to do that - we _can_ go a few steps further... personally, I even think that scene art evolved in a better way than most conventional (aka commercial) art - because those are too simple "by concept", we can go "deeper", more "abstract" as the scene audience is a more mature audience, or so I think :). But this might be too bold a statement...
Anyway, any way you put it, scene art will always be inferior to the other artform _you_ deem superior. Expect others to disagree ;). Ciao,
Vince.
Quote:
Am I doing this? I didn't understood what you mean with that. That's what I am trying to say here actually, that some sceners seems to be so fanatic with the scene, that they think it's the best thing out there and despise nonscene and commercial art. Sorry if I am prejudged, I just wanted to discuss my thoughts and didn't meaned anything bad about the community and the sceners. I really don't know how some of you are receiving my comments..
I meant to say approximately what you are arguing in this quote
sorry... just getting back to the picture that sparked this thread off....
*FUCK ME!* that's *beautiful*! I ought to say something more sensible than that, but I just can't think of anything really...
Don't get me wrong - there's some great scene-art out there, but that pic is mindblowing...
*FUCK ME!* that's *beautiful*! I ought to say something more sensible than that, but I just can't think of anything really...
Don't get me wrong - there's some great scene-art out there, but that pic is mindblowing...
I'd say beauty is in the eye of the beholder... I know I like the oldschool digimusic; not everybody likes that sort of thing...
As for graphics... well, my new avatar is probably the most graphically complex thing I've ever done... at least the AIM buddy icon it was made from. Go figure.
As for graphics... well, my new avatar is probably the most graphically complex thing I've ever done... at least the AIM buddy icon it was made from. Go figure.
I think STEFANDXM is the BEST GRAPHICIAN.
i think TOMCAT is the BEST RANTER.
still couple more things: in my opinion what today
scene art is more near professional art than what it
used to be. for example artists use wacom and high
end pentiums and there is no more difference between professional and amateur in soft/hardware.
so if you are good artist and you keep practising you can reach level of top artists because they're also forced to use computers too.. pixel art was nonprofessional and it was almost always copied from
sources of professional artist. ofcourse there is/was
original pixel artists like devilstar etc. but for example
guys like made, danny, rendall and bridgeclaw have
did copies.. well.. i just shut up now. bye. i love you
all... dont flame me
scene art is more near professional art than what it
used to be. for example artists use wacom and high
end pentiums and there is no more difference between professional and amateur in soft/hardware.
so if you are good artist and you keep practising you can reach level of top artists because they're also forced to use computers too.. pixel art was nonprofessional and it was almost always copied from
sources of professional artist. ofcourse there is/was
original pixel artists like devilstar etc. but for example
guys like made, danny, rendall and bridgeclaw have
did copies.. well.. i just shut up now. bye. i love you
all... dont flame me
I think STEFANDXM is a C..T
(fill in the blanks...)
He's a cart? (j/k)
cat?
Stefan of DXM is the ultimate doll where you can brush his hair for free. The ultimate sex dream.
Join da pardey!!!!!!!
Join da pardey!!!!!!!
`nother point
Some of you might think that the so-called scene is the pinnacle of the creativity on the computer. But (surprise surprise) its not. Probably it used to be on amiga, and thats why there were so many good 'scene' works. Today only a small fracture of computer musicians, artists etc involved in the 'demoscene', thus you cant expect scene productions to be the best in the world.
And majority of artist prefer to share their works with people who appreciate drawings - with their peers in the art communities. Because they wouldn't have to put up with bullshit comments like '..oh another girl (dragon/robot). suxxx'
Point about pro/amateur is wrong. Many active sceners have full-time job (ie as professional coders), still they can find the time for their hobby. And most of the pictures at art graphics sites are done for fun, not job works too.
Some of you might think that the so-called scene is the pinnacle of the creativity on the computer. But (surprise surprise) its not. Probably it used to be on amiga, and thats why there were so many good 'scene' works. Today only a small fracture of computer musicians, artists etc involved in the 'demoscene', thus you cant expect scene productions to be the best in the world.
And majority of artist prefer to share their works with people who appreciate drawings - with their peers in the art communities. Because they wouldn't have to put up with bullshit comments like '..oh another girl (dragon/robot). suxxx'
Point about pro/amateur is wrong. Many active sceners have full-time job (ie as professional coders), still they can find the time for their hobby. And most of the pictures at art graphics sites are done for fun, not job works too.
Well, I think in the Amiga's heyday less people used computers in general. So the percentage of geeks (or whatever) creating pictures/music for demos versus general release may be in decline, the overall numbers are probably quite similar.
still, people tend to take part in their 'own' respective scenes, and you really have to beat them up to interest them into participating in a demo. (where the only examples you can show them don't particularly emphasizes their own skills; but rather glorify code)
I think the symbiosis with musicians is easier though, you can always present the demos as music videos or using the vj point of view if you can afford it.. for graphicians, either they are illustrators, and illustrations don't really fit an animated medium, (much better in print) or 3d artists who may prefer more "movie" like results. (a narrative mainly)
And even though the computer market is surely a lot bigger nowadays (i wonder about the numbers though) I have a (totally unsubstantiated) feeling the proportion of people creating stuff was more easily captured by the scene, for technical reasons, (you couldn't do professional grade stuff, for example print quality graphics) and because the internet wasn't available .
I think the symbiosis with musicians is easier though, you can always present the demos as music videos or using the vj point of view if you can afford it.. for graphicians, either they are illustrators, and illustrations don't really fit an animated medium, (much better in print) or 3d artists who may prefer more "movie" like results. (a narrative mainly)
And even though the computer market is surely a lot bigger nowadays (i wonder about the numbers though) I have a (totally unsubstantiated) feeling the proportion of people creating stuff was more easily captured by the scene, for technical reasons, (you couldn't do professional grade stuff, for example print quality graphics) and because the internet wasn't available .
most of demoscene graphicians are "selftrained", which usually ends up to not be disciple enough to work on pictures as detailed as craig mullins for instance.
demoscene graphicians draw for fun mostly, and do it freehand, without any helpers.
but as for artists, they're usually much better than the musicians, there's like 0 interesting tracks in the recent demos. and still ok visuals.
stop whining, do stuff.
demoscene graphicians draw for fun mostly, and do it freehand, without any helpers.
but as for artists, they're usually much better than the musicians, there's like 0 interesting tracks in the recent demos. and still ok visuals.
stop whining, do stuff.
Speedy: you have a point, but there is a difference - when you're a coder, going from your professional work to demos is a smaller step than going from graphical artist to demo graphician.
Plus, there's a difference in making a single 5-second "illustration" for a demo than making all the 3d models, textures, backgrounds, logos etc... the work involved there is much greater, so you have to be seriously committed to pull it off. And usually, the graphical artist with high-level skills doesn't have the time to commit to such an extent, unless he gets paid for it.
Example: I have interviewed several (Belgian) comic book designers (Schuiten, Swolfs, Nys, ...) and they have strict contracts with their publishers - they _must_ produce 4-6 comics each year in total (whether or not it's for one or several series), which means they have to create a certain amount of pages each week. I don't think they have much sparetime beyond that, and when they do have their time off, I don't think they will keep on drawing...
Of course, they aren't "real" artists, but those, especially the more successful ones, make so much money with their work, that it'd be impossible for us to "hire" their services - let alone do it for free. With that said, maybe we can convince Panamarenko to do a scene project where he wraps up all computer hardware at Breakpoint 04 ;). Or entangles them with glass fibre.
Vince.
Plus, there's a difference in making a single 5-second "illustration" for a demo than making all the 3d models, textures, backgrounds, logos etc... the work involved there is much greater, so you have to be seriously committed to pull it off. And usually, the graphical artist with high-level skills doesn't have the time to commit to such an extent, unless he gets paid for it.
Example: I have interviewed several (Belgian) comic book designers (Schuiten, Swolfs, Nys, ...) and they have strict contracts with their publishers - they _must_ produce 4-6 comics each year in total (whether or not it's for one or several series), which means they have to create a certain amount of pages each week. I don't think they have much sparetime beyond that, and when they do have their time off, I don't think they will keep on drawing...
Of course, they aren't "real" artists, but those, especially the more successful ones, make so much money with their work, that it'd be impossible for us to "hire" their services - let alone do it for free. With that said, maybe we can convince Panamarenko to do a scene project where he wraps up all computer hardware at Breakpoint 04 ;). Or entangles them with glass fibre.
Vince.
don't forget most demoscene graphicans are quite young and if they get really good they tend to go professional and leave the scene.
<3 piriste: you are right
and <3 <3 <3 violator... JUST LIKE DANNY/TBL
and <3 <3 <3 violator... JUST LIKE DANNY/TBL
yeh, five hundred years from now there will be hanging pixelled logos in Louvre.
Quote:
when you're a coder, going from your professional work to demos is a smaller step than going from graphical artist to demo graphician.
Yeah, that's a good point. Futhermore, a 'coder only' demo is perfectly acceptable, but music only or graphics only is not a demo. (For the most part...)
Ugh this thread... I swear.
Optimus, there's no reason to start arguments like this, but I must congratulate you for starting yet another [though rather moot] 'contraversial' thread... if only because it seems to come from a point of little exposure to good scene gfx.
The picture you linked to was awfully cliche in subject, yet technically it was very well done, i'll give it that. Unfortunately, technical superiority lies far below originality in the hierarchy of greatness, in any medium [graphics, music, code, presentation]. Just because someone can draw an amazingly-close to photographic work doesn't in itself make them a good artist, at least in my eyes. The first linked work looks like thousands of other pictures i've seen walking through any comic/d&d twinkie shop.
This phenomenon unfortunately has been the bane of demoscene gfx too: I can't count how many times i've gone through the graphics section of any party results and seen the word 'dragon' or 'robotic' at the top of the chart . They are common themes that seem to win compos for some reason (maybe scene artists spend all their free time playing dungeons & dragons or Shadowgate?).
One group that consistantly puts out high quality art [at least to my mind] is Haujobb - I suggest you check out 'aRT' if you haven't yet - a great example of a good blend of technical skill and creative design. it's on pouet here:
http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=125
There are many others, unfortunately i just got too baked and lazy [forgot i was even posting heh] to search for them... but they're out there.
Optimus, there's no reason to start arguments like this, but I must congratulate you for starting yet another [though rather moot] 'contraversial' thread... if only because it seems to come from a point of little exposure to good scene gfx.
The picture you linked to was awfully cliche in subject, yet technically it was very well done, i'll give it that. Unfortunately, technical superiority lies far below originality in the hierarchy of greatness, in any medium [graphics, music, code, presentation]. Just because someone can draw an amazingly-close to photographic work doesn't in itself make them a good artist, at least in my eyes. The first linked work looks like thousands of other pictures i've seen walking through any comic/d&d twinkie shop.
This phenomenon unfortunately has been the bane of demoscene gfx too: I can't count how many times i've gone through the graphics section of any party results and seen the word 'dragon' or 'robotic' at the top of the chart . They are common themes that seem to win compos for some reason (maybe scene artists spend all their free time playing dungeons & dragons or Shadowgate?).
One group that consistantly puts out high quality art [at least to my mind] is Haujobb - I suggest you check out 'aRT' if you haven't yet - a great example of a good blend of technical skill and creative design. it's on pouet here:
http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=125
There are many others, unfortunately i just got too baked and lazy [forgot i was even posting heh] to search for them... but they're out there.
there's no such thing as "scene graphics".
all there's is, is good or bad art
(and such that actually is good but simply disliked by the viewer).
most art used in demos is either bad or ripped.
but luckily some pieces of really cool artwork has also been used in scene demos.
all there's is, is good or bad art
(and such that actually is good but simply disliked by the viewer).
most art used in demos is either bad or ripped.
but luckily some pieces of really cool artwork has also been used in scene demos.
Whenever I see any form of art I always look at the effort behind it. Regardless of whether it's original or copied, if it has been made by simple means (i.e. clicking a few filters or pasting scans together) I find it hard to respect that.
Not all original art is good and not all copied art is bad. The question I always ask myself is "Could I do that?"
When I look at pictures like Sheryl Lee by Peachy or Einstein by Ra, it doesn't matter if I have a photo to copy, I know I'm just not capable of reaching that standard.
Not all original art is good and not all copied art is bad. The question I always ask myself is "Could I do that?"
When I look at pictures like Sheryl Lee by Peachy or Einstein by Ra, it doesn't matter if I have a photo to copy, I know I'm just not capable of reaching that standard.
