Scene.org Awards 2011
category: parties [glöplog]
This is an excellent opportunity for the TG Demoscene crew to totally win the respect of the demoscene. I really hope they will be able to fix a "demoscene section" where you will be able to drink alcohol.
If not BYO, then a bar thing with reasonable prices. Hell, TG could even make some money out of it.
It works at music festivals in Norway and Sweden were you have areas with alcohol serving, and areas without. This does need more security ofcourse, but it could work.
If not BYO, then a bar thing with reasonable prices. Hell, TG could even make some money out of it.
It works at music festivals in Norway and Sweden were you have areas with alcohol serving, and areas without. This does need more security ofcourse, but it could work.
forbandede is-hippier, jeg kommer ind og bestiller en irish coffee og så HÆLDER JEG DEN UD PÅ DISKEN
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This is an excellent opportunity for the TG Demoscene crew to totally win the respect of the demoscene. I really hope they will be able to fix a "demoscene section" where you will be able to drink alcohol.
So what exactly is so special about the demoscene that - after years of The Gathering being successfully run as an alcohol-free event - they're expected to change their policy and allocate a whole load of resources so that a bunch of self-important nerds (who have mostly ignored the party for the last decade or so, until it's suddenly become convenient to take an interest in it again) can have their own VIP boozing area away from the unwashed masses, distancing themselves from the entire culture the party is built on? Why is "winning our respect" important enough to go to all that trouble?
Don't get me wrong, I fully agree that a demo party with alcohol is better than one without. But I'm not really seeing what's in it for The Gathering here.
Who knows, this may just revivify TG? I admit I always wanted to go just because of its venerability, but I couldn't justify it because the number of trips I can take overseas are severely limited . . . hence why I like streaming so much ( :
metoikos: Nothing is fixed yet, but I can say pretty safely that there will be a TG compostream, indeed. :-)
does this thread mean there wont be a random breakpoint replacement?
What a terrible idea. The rumor that a bunch of well-known demo party organizers are working on setting up a replacement event for Breakpoint in Germany sure has reached scene.org ears. They could have waited on what materialized out of this.
Instead they decided to getting bought by a non-scene-event. The question of what is more imporant to them - cash or scene - has been answered in a clear way now.
"Scene.org has cooperated with The Gathering for many years, and the move is a logical extension of that relationship" - let me translate this for you: For the last years TG has sent money to scene.org, but other than that, nobody cared really. The audience at TG watching the awards has been in the 2-digit number range. Now TG has put even more money on the table.
Yes, this decision makes sense "business-wise", but scene shouldn't be business. Now imagine this replacement event really takes place on Easter weekend 2011 in Germany - the outcome would be scene.org awards being held in front of non-existant audience, with the target audioence sitting several hundred kilometers away.
Silly.
Instead they decided to getting bought by a non-scene-event. The question of what is more imporant to them - cash or scene - has been answered in a clear way now.
"Scene.org has cooperated with The Gathering for many years, and the move is a logical extension of that relationship" - let me translate this for you: For the last years TG has sent money to scene.org, but other than that, nobody cared really. The audience at TG watching the awards has been in the 2-digit number range. Now TG has put even more money on the table.
Yes, this decision makes sense "business-wise", but scene shouldn't be business. Now imagine this replacement event really takes place on Easter weekend 2011 in Germany - the outcome would be scene.org awards being held in front of non-existant audience, with the target audioence sitting several hundred kilometers away.
Silly.
gasman: Regarding "what's in it for the Gathering" - some of those LAN parties that still maintain some form of scene activity the following might-make sense:
From a business perspective, one of the obstacles for running a LAN parties is having politcal support for them. In many countries LAN partys have in public been stigmatized to be related to "killer games". In Germany quite a bunch of LAN parties had to be cancelled due to politicians suddenly pulling out of supporting these events due to that stigma. By embeddeing "culture" and "art" into such an event, you can call it "art party". That's what demoparties internally use as a term when talking to politicians - because art is free, sounds good and not a big risk supporting. By copying this, LAN parties also can gain this kind of support, and make themselves far harder to attack by politicals, the press or the public opinion.
Of course in some of those LAN parties there still are a bunch of highly motivated sceners who are pushing for supporting the scene. This surely is the case for TG and ASM, and it's great. But it's hard to believe that with the size The Gathering and Assembly have gotten to business-wise, that such a big investment decision isn't simply part of a business strategy. Getting the demoscene to LAN parties is a gigantic loss, you bascially have to pay tons of money for giving them the environment to be happy - on your party budget plan it's a big fat red number.
To give you a hint: Neither mekka symposium, nor Breakpoint, would have ever existed without being able to play the "art" card towards politicians. This is the key card to organizing big events with support instead of terror from politics and bureauracy.
IHMO TG's purchase of the scene.org awards is an attempt to buy the "art" card. And scene.org has just closed the sale.
It's a simply a matter of individual position whether this is a good thing or not. My feelings are mixed, though.
From a business perspective, one of the obstacles for running a LAN parties is having politcal support for them. In many countries LAN partys have in public been stigmatized to be related to "killer games". In Germany quite a bunch of LAN parties had to be cancelled due to politicians suddenly pulling out of supporting these events due to that stigma. By embeddeing "culture" and "art" into such an event, you can call it "art party". That's what demoparties internally use as a term when talking to politicians - because art is free, sounds good and not a big risk supporting. By copying this, LAN parties also can gain this kind of support, and make themselves far harder to attack by politicals, the press or the public opinion.
Of course in some of those LAN parties there still are a bunch of highly motivated sceners who are pushing for supporting the scene. This surely is the case for TG and ASM, and it's great. But it's hard to believe that with the size The Gathering and Assembly have gotten to business-wise, that such a big investment decision isn't simply part of a business strategy. Getting the demoscene to LAN parties is a gigantic loss, you bascially have to pay tons of money for giving them the environment to be happy - on your party budget plan it's a big fat red number.
To give you a hint: Neither mekka symposium, nor Breakpoint, would have ever existed without being able to play the "art" card towards politicians. This is the key card to organizing big events with support instead of terror from politics and bureauracy.
IHMO TG's purchase of the scene.org awards is an attempt to buy the "art" card. And scene.org has just closed the sale.
It's a simply a matter of individual position whether this is a good thing or not. My feelings are mixed, though.
do it at outline instead! :P
scamp: I can pretty much assure you this is not what has happened, but the people involved (Duckers, lug00ber, etc.) will probably make a much better case for it than I can, if they want to speak out on the matter at all. (I'm not really sure TG has to “defend” this decision to anyone.)
There are many things that can be said about explaining how the TG organization works and how and why decisions are made, but this is the wrong forum for that. Contact me in private if you really want to hear, but I guess it's pretty boring and long-winded :-)
There are many things that can be said about explaining how the TG organization works and how and why decisions are made, but this is the wrong forum for that. Contact me in private if you really want to hear, but I guess it's pretty boring and long-winded :-)
@scamp:
You are simply wrong. TG is exempt from paying VAT on ticket sales, and has been for several years. The tax authorities in Norway contested TGs status as a cultural event and tried to collect taxes in 2008. The norwegian government reaffirmed TG (and other computer parties as well) status as cultural event in 2008.
There is no regulatory incentive for us to "buy" scene.org awards. We do not get any extra governmental funding to host the awards. Financially, hosting scene.org awards have no gains at all for us, neither directly (it's just more expenses) or indirectly. While we do hope to attract more international sceners in 2011, this will just hurt us even more financially, as foreigner tickets are sold at half price. Since TG has been sold out for every year as far back as I can remember, this means that the foreigner tickets will displace regular tickets, in turn reducing our income.
You have every right to dislike TG, what we do and the decision scene.org made regarding the 2011 awards, I'd be thankful if you could refrain from speculation and/or pure slander.
You are simply wrong. TG is exempt from paying VAT on ticket sales, and has been for several years. The tax authorities in Norway contested TGs status as a cultural event and tried to collect taxes in 2008. The norwegian government reaffirmed TG (and other computer parties as well) status as cultural event in 2008.
There is no regulatory incentive for us to "buy" scene.org awards. We do not get any extra governmental funding to host the awards. Financially, hosting scene.org awards have no gains at all for us, neither directly (it's just more expenses) or indirectly. While we do hope to attract more international sceners in 2011, this will just hurt us even more financially, as foreigner tickets are sold at half price. Since TG has been sold out for every year as far back as I can remember, this means that the foreigner tickets will displace regular tickets, in turn reducing our income.
You have every right to dislike TG, what we do and the decision scene.org made regarding the 2011 awards, I'd be thankful if you could refrain from speculation and/or pure slander.
lug00ber:
Hm.
Me:
"Getting the demoscene to LAN parties is a gigantic loss, you bascially have to pay tons of money for giving them the environment to be happy - on your party budget plan it's a big fat red number."
You: "Financially, hosting scene.org awards have no gains at all for us, neither directly (it's just more expenses) or indirectly. While we do hope to attract more international sceners in 2011, this will just hurt us even more financially, as foreigner tickets are sold at half price. Since TG has been sold out for every year as far back as I can remember, this means that the foreigner tickets will displace regular tickets, in turn reducing our income."
I can't exactly see where we disagree here?
You seem to be implying that "a business" means a "for-profit business". I didn't imply that. Any kind of demo/lan/computer party of the size BP, TG, ASM etc is run as a business. You are moving tons of money (sponsor money, event costs, ticket sales), and you do it like a business. Else it would not work and the party would go broke. And don't tell me TG is not succesfully playing the art card towards the politics, I won't believe you.
I have to excuse for not believing into the "no incentive" part. Humans don't do things without incentives. There is always some incentive - I could even be the wish getting loved.
Hm.
Me:
"Getting the demoscene to LAN parties is a gigantic loss, you bascially have to pay tons of money for giving them the environment to be happy - on your party budget plan it's a big fat red number."
You: "Financially, hosting scene.org awards have no gains at all for us, neither directly (it's just more expenses) or indirectly. While we do hope to attract more international sceners in 2011, this will just hurt us even more financially, as foreigner tickets are sold at half price. Since TG has been sold out for every year as far back as I can remember, this means that the foreigner tickets will displace regular tickets, in turn reducing our income."
I can't exactly see where we disagree here?
You seem to be implying that "a business" means a "for-profit business". I didn't imply that. Any kind of demo/lan/computer party of the size BP, TG, ASM etc is run as a business. You are moving tons of money (sponsor money, event costs, ticket sales), and you do it like a business. Else it would not work and the party would go broke. And don't tell me TG is not succesfully playing the art card towards the politics, I won't believe you.
I have to excuse for not believing into the "no incentive" part. Humans don't do things without incentives. There is always some incentive - I could even be the wish getting loved.
Of course there is an incentive, my point was that it is not financial.
This is where we disagree:
We don't need to buy an "art card", we already have status as a cultural event. This status is not dependent on demoscene activities, far less on the scene.org awards itself, meaning that the basis of your accusation has no root in reality.
This is where we disagree:
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IHMO TG's purchase of the scene.org awards is an attempt to buy the "art" card. And scene.org has just closed the sale.
We don't need to buy an "art card", we already have status as a cultural event. This status is not dependent on demoscene activities, far less on the scene.org awards itself, meaning that the basis of your accusation has no root in reality.
i also fail to see any sense moving scene.org awards to TG. i do not think that anyone except scandinavian sceners (for whom it is near enough) will go there. the whole german / middle-east-european / french / dutch /... sceners (at least in their majority) surely will not travel thousands of kilometers just to be confronted with thousands gamelamers and strict security. sure, people travelled to assembly, but that was mainly because of boozembly and superb compos. but TG does not have anything comparable to the first, and as for the second, it's still not comparable to assembly. so, this would result holding the scene's most important (and basically only) awards infront of a bunch of gamelamers who don't care. we all have seen the ridiculously half-empty audience at TG watching scene.org award stream. i don't think gamers will care more with the awards actually being held at the party - you will probably even have problems getting them to turn off their screens. at asm, gamelamers turn off their screens because demoscene tradition is so rooted at that event - but i am not quite sure if it is rooted like that at TG and i am in fact pretty sure that a high percentage of the gamers going to TG are not even aware of the demoscene roots of that event.
this is by no way ment to be an offence against TG organisers, especially those who try to maintain something like a spark of demoscene presence in this game event. i am just being realistic and failing to see any benefit from this move either for TG or for the scene.org awards and the scene in general. i do understand that to organize scene.org awards you need a 4-day demoparty because no other demoparty can spare a whole night for awards, and after breakpoint is gone, tg is the only 4-day party left. i also do understand that the perspective of a followup demoscene event might have been too vague for the awards organizers - but i do agree with scamp: why did you have to decide so early?
this is by no way ment to be an offence against TG organisers, especially those who try to maintain something like a spark of demoscene presence in this game event. i am just being realistic and failing to see any benefit from this move either for TG or for the scene.org awards and the scene in general. i do understand that to organize scene.org awards you need a 4-day demoparty because no other demoparty can spare a whole night for awards, and after breakpoint is gone, tg is the only 4-day party left. i also do understand that the perspective of a followup demoscene event might have been too vague for the awards organizers - but i do agree with scamp: why did you have to decide so early?
But if there is greater influx of sceners wouldn't that also help getting sponsors like Nvidia onboard?
Also, KANDU(the non profit-organisation that runs TG) seems to have begun to tell apart between creative and non-creative digital culture.
Something i felt was lacking in their scope when it came to promoting their goals, but that might just be me( I'll happily accept a "shut up" from someone more involved in kandu :) )
But still, in this day of age, youth are complacent amongst the unending streams of accessible entertainment, free will is wasted without limits to stimulate it.
KANDU(Creative Active Norwegian Computer Youth) should try to promote some useful goals alongside with the skills to reach them, and less "pwning n00bs".
Now...how can I mix in a good reason to go boozing amongst all this?
Also, KANDU(the non profit-organisation that runs TG) seems to have begun to tell apart between creative and non-creative digital culture.
Something i felt was lacking in their scope when it came to promoting their goals, but that might just be me( I'll happily accept a "shut up" from someone more involved in kandu :) )
But still, in this day of age, youth are complacent amongst the unending streams of accessible entertainment, free will is wasted without limits to stimulate it.
KANDU(Creative Active Norwegian Computer Youth) should try to promote some useful goals alongside with the skills to reach them, and less "pwning n00bs".
Now...how can I mix in a good reason to go boozing amongst all this?
for what is worth, here is my take:
first of all let me say that I have the utmost respect for the TG compo crew and the Norwegian sceners who visit TG. They are all very welcoming and myself have had a very relaxing time each time I visited. It is obvious that they are doing what they can to open up the scene to the gamers in the hall.
however, I believe this is not a good idea, for the following reasons:
* any demoscene related events (including the demo compo) are and will never be the center of attention; because of the size of the place (there is no central stage, nor is the place amphitheatrical). You can argue that the scene.org stage can be moved inside the lecture theater, but it is probably too small.
* unlike assembly, gamers never seem to stop killing/buying magic potions when a competition/event is on. Maybe 80% seems to just not care.
* Access to Hamar for most requires a plane journey and then you have a journey on the train which will last more than an hour each way. I'm not sure how many central Europe sceners will be able (or want to) do/afford that.
* I have to mention that it is usually fucking cold too. Not a problem if you are there to combine the party with some scenery seeing (it is a beautiful country after all), but socializing in these conditions is actually tough. Also sleeping can be an issue - you need a couple of layers of clothes all the time. So, all in all, hardly the place to have a bbq, or a couple of beers outside (like in boozembly).
Having visited all these parties, the absolutely best place to hold the scene.org awards is Evoke. But this is my personal opinion.
first of all let me say that I have the utmost respect for the TG compo crew and the Norwegian sceners who visit TG. They are all very welcoming and myself have had a very relaxing time each time I visited. It is obvious that they are doing what they can to open up the scene to the gamers in the hall.
however, I believe this is not a good idea, for the following reasons:
* any demoscene related events (including the demo compo) are and will never be the center of attention; because of the size of the place (there is no central stage, nor is the place amphitheatrical). You can argue that the scene.org stage can be moved inside the lecture theater, but it is probably too small.
* unlike assembly, gamers never seem to stop killing/buying magic potions when a competition/event is on. Maybe 80% seems to just not care.
* Access to Hamar for most requires a plane journey and then you have a journey on the train which will last more than an hour each way. I'm not sure how many central Europe sceners will be able (or want to) do/afford that.
* I have to mention that it is usually fucking cold too. Not a problem if you are there to combine the party with some scenery seeing (it is a beautiful country after all), but socializing in these conditions is actually tough. Also sleeping can be an issue - you need a couple of layers of clothes all the time. So, all in all, hardly the place to have a bbq, or a couple of beers outside (like in boozembly).
Having visited all these parties, the absolutely best place to hold the scene.org awards is Evoke. But this is my personal opinion.
Dip: Believe it or not, but planning the Awards is actually something that needs quite a lot of time, way in advance. Knowing the arena early helps with that.
Also, to the best of my knowledge, the "rumoured possible replacement party" never contacted the Awards staff.
Quite frankly, I can't see what you guys have against TG, especially those of you who have never been there. Sure, back in 1998/1999 the organizers did a good job of tossing the sceners out, but since then they've struggled every year to get them back, and with good results and great ideas. I would have gone there myself, even with Breakpoint as a competing party, if it hadn't been for the fact that I normally go to the event where I know the most people.
Also, to the best of my knowledge, the "rumoured possible replacement party" never contacted the Awards staff.
Quite frankly, I can't see what you guys have against TG, especially those of you who have never been there. Sure, back in 1998/1999 the organizers did a good job of tossing the sceners out, but since then they've struggled every year to get them back, and with good results and great ideas. I would have gone there myself, even with Breakpoint as a competing party, if it hadn't been for the fact that I normally go to the event where I know the most people.
Just wanted to comment on Navis' thing about the stage not being the center of attention; it currently is. The entire stage has been moved to the center of the hall, it is no longer at either of the sides.
Otherwise, what Leia said.
Otherwise, what Leia said.
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Not true - the stage was moved and expanded this year, to great success.* any demoscene related events (including the demo compo) are and will never be the center of attention; because of the size of the place (there is no central stage, nor is the place amphitheatrical). You can argue that the scene.org stage can be moved inside the lecture theater, but it is probably too small.
Quote:
Also not true - because of the new stage placement, and completely rewamped focus on creativity, the TG 2010 compos didn't only have silence from the crowd, but also gathered a massive amount of people in front of the bigscreen.* unlike assembly, gamers never seem to stop killing/buying magic potions when a competition/event is on. Maybe 80% seems to just not care.
