does ZX Spectrum platform needs to be subdivided?
category: general [glöplog]
I just love this topic. I'm just waiting to see 14 more pages :)
For me, Sam Coupe is ZX. Timex is ZX, ATM is ZX, whatever is backwards compatible on hardware level with at least some soft from original 48k, is ZX.
However, from a practical point of view, I support the following categorization:
48k
128k + clones
Advanced + clones (extra devices, extra cpu, extra gfx)
Look at the problem from a point of usability. What are the people waiting to see? Does auditorium bother to separate original 128 from pentagon? Does auditorium gives a fuck about baseconf vs tsconf?
Split the works into categories most people recognize, no categories 1% are arguing about.
For me, Sam Coupe is ZX. Timex is ZX, ATM is ZX, whatever is backwards compatible on hardware level with at least some soft from original 48k, is ZX.
However, from a practical point of view, I support the following categorization:
48k
128k + clones
Advanced + clones (extra devices, extra cpu, extra gfx)
Look at the problem from a point of usability. What are the people waiting to see? Does auditorium bother to separate original 128 from pentagon? Does auditorium gives a fuck about baseconf vs tsconf?
Split the works into categories most people recognize, no categories 1% are arguing about.
About border. Does demos with border effects work on ATM ?
> Seriously people: Less than 1000 units sold => Wild. Problem solved.
I agree, too.
Anyway, all the other FPGA firmwares are in Wild. So why will TS-Config be an exception?
I agree, too.
Anyway, all the other FPGA firmwares are in Wild. So why will TS-Config be an exception?
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Okay motherfuckers, ZX is now officially subdivided.
ZX Spectrum remains the platform for demos on the stock ZX that run on the original unmodified rubbery monster
ZX Enhanced is the new category for ZX clones, including but not limited to the Pentagon, Pentevo, TS-Conf, anything that doesn't run on the original, but runs on the same Z80 instruction set.
Two notes:
- It is perfectly possible for a demo to be in both categories if it runs on both.
- This is as anything subject to change at any point so chill.
Are you a good feel yourself?
You put in one row a ts-conf and a pentagon. This is the same as to compare bmw z3 and wolksvagen beetle. Both cars but they different greatly. Pentagon it the same zx spectrum but with slightly different int.
Mix all the clones in one category - at least it is not correct.
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Anyway, all the other FPGA firmwares are in Wild. So why will TS-Config be an exception?
Because the people writing TS-Config demos are writing Z80 code for a specific, well-defined platform. They are not writing FPGA code. The fact that TS-Config is implemented on FPGA is an irrelevant implementation detail.
this, this and this all involved writing FPGA code specifically for the demo. Therefore, depending on your point of view, they are either demos for the "FPGA" platform, or demos for a one-off platform created just for that one demo. Either way, they are correctly listed as "wild".
this is a demo for a specific pre-existing platform, so this is a similar situation to the TS-Config. IMO the V6Z80P should get its own platform category once there are "enough" demos for it.
Platform != hardware. A platform is nothing more than a set of constraints that demos are created within. We have platforms that are tied to hardware (Spectrum, C64); we have platforms that are tied to operating systems (Windows, Linux); we have platforms that are tied to application software (browser, mIRC). There's no reason we can't have platforms that correspond to specific FPGA configurations too.
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Guys, you made all the fuss just because of a piece of virtual hardware that is no closer to ZX Spectrum than Sega Genesis, because of its Z80. All the old Russian Speccy clones are just evolution of the original, the same principle, just some modifications added (for example, colour per pixel mode is made with one 74xx IC). TS-Conf is just a program that works on a reconfigurable hardware that can emulate ZX SpectrumOkay motherfuckers, ZX is now officially subdivided. ZX Spectrum remains the platform for demos on the stock ZX that run on the original unmodified rubbery monster ZX Enhanced is the new category for ZX clones, including but not limited to the Pentagon, Pentevo, TS-Conf, anything that doesn't run on the original, but runs on the same Z80 instruction set. Two notes: - It is perfectly possible for a demo to be in both categories if it runs on both. - This is as anything subject to change at any point so chill.
>Because the people writing TS-Config demos are writing Z80 code for a specific, well-defined platform.
People writing V6Z80P demos also do. What is the difference? That the author of V6Z80P made his own board, and TS-Labs used some other's board?
People writing V6Z80P demos also do. What is the difference? That the author of V6Z80P made his own board, and TS-Labs used some other's board?
Note, he also blamed the original authors of the board.
Just realize how many hundreds of platforms there will be if we include every operating system, every programmable application software, and every FPGA firmware!
Please consider that we are subdividing the DEMOS, not the platforms. So, in fact, it doesn't matter what the difference between them. The main thing is - does this demo run on 48k? On 128k? On how many 128k clones? And so on.
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Just realize how many hundreds of platforms there will be if we include every operating system, every programmable application software, and every FPGA firmware!
Yes, and that's exactly why Gargaj is selective about which platforms we have on Pouet. In particular, it goes a long way to explaining:
* why V6Z80P doesn't have its own category
* why TS-Conf doesn't have its own category either (but is now part of a slightly more helpful category than 'Wild')
* why he didn't split ZX Spectrum into 5 categories, like people here originally asked for
msx, msx2, msx2+, msx turbo-r...
better sweep mac os, mac osx and mac osx (intel) on one heap too! we dont flag shit as windows 95 or ati-only either
glad my question missed. Just Another prof of ATM incompatibility.
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I'm not sure how you can pull proof out of a lack of answers. Everyone and their friend/mother/ex-girlfriend's-college-roommate's-friend-from-down-the-hall/ is commenting on this thread and you expect people notice (or care)?by g0blinish:
glad my question missed. Just Another prof of ATM incompatibility.
Note, the category for such machines as TS-Conf and TS*Conf (3D engine) at Multimatograf, DiHalt, and 3BM is named "Enhanced demo", not "ZX Enhanced demo".
In fact, the DEMOS (we are dividing) for such hardware don't use anything Spectrum-ish except from Z80 and AY (for which ZX Spectrum has no monopoly).
In fact, the DEMOS (we are dividing) for such hardware don't use anything Spectrum-ish except from Z80 and AY (for which ZX Spectrum has no monopoly).
Yeah but it doesn't necessarily matter what the demoparty calls their compo. Consider things like Revision's animation/video compo or their wild compo. All demos in the former are listed as a Wild prod and some of the items in the latter are listed as musicdisks, demos, invites, etc.
Seems to me people are fairly happy with the two categories as it stands and it's now down to just bickering about what qualifies for each category.
From what I gather these other systems have a lot in common with the ZX Spectrum even with their differences. At least enough that people were willing to list them as ZX Spectrum prior to the creation of the new category.
Therefore at least from an outside perspective I think it's a fine moniker. Also, to be honest, if I were you if it wasn't something I 100% couldn't live with at this point, I'd just shut up about it. The name doesn't seem way far off the mark, such as calling it Cerulean Dream Machines instead for example, and if it'll stop the fights in the prod comments then it's done its job. I think everyone would like to be able to return to voting on productions in these categories based on merit, not based on category fit or who was the last person to be involved in any memorable drama.
Seems to me people are fairly happy with the two categories as it stands and it's now down to just bickering about what qualifies for each category.
From what I gather these other systems have a lot in common with the ZX Spectrum even with their differences. At least enough that people were willing to list them as ZX Spectrum prior to the creation of the new category.
Therefore at least from an outside perspective I think it's a fine moniker. Also, to be honest, if I were you if it wasn't something I 100% couldn't live with at this point, I'd just shut up about it. The name doesn't seem way far off the mark, such as calling it Cerulean Dream Machines instead for example, and if it'll stop the fights in the prod comments then it's done its job. I think everyone would like to be able to return to voting on productions in these categories based on merit, not based on category fit or who was the last person to be involved in any memorable drama.
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I'm not sure how you can pull proof out of a lack of answers. Everyone and their friend/mother/ex-girlfriend's-college-roommate's-friend-from-down-the-hall/ is commenting on this thread and you expect people notice (or care)?
My question may be called uncomfortable question for Alco. he tries to push through an ATM in the list of platforms. I believe this is wrong. Wrong that you close your eyes on the above arguments.
Anyway ATM may count as "Extended" with EGA-style graphics. or ATM Turbo just oversteroided ZX Spectrum.
Talking of platforms hardware, TS-Conf doesn't need any special HW initialization to run in ZX mode. Indeed, it has System ROM bank which contains the code for reset procedure into selected ROM bank and setup utility. But flash Basic 48 into this 16k ROM, press Reset and you will see Basic 48.
Try the same trick with ATM Turbo and you will see... brick. Why? Because this board needs a lot of internal registers init before it can actually run in any mode. Memory pager, CRAM, hell knows what else. It reminds me of contemporary PCs which need a sophisticated HW initialization. Not very ZX-ish.
But since we categorize prods and not platforms, all upper mentioned is a bullshit.
If Pentagon prod runs on 128k, +2/3 etc, at least it doesn't crash or reset - it is a ZX category.
If it needs sprites, 16 colors per pixel, complex memory pager, whatever - Enhanced.
That's what I think.
Try the same trick with ATM Turbo and you will see... brick. Why? Because this board needs a lot of internal registers init before it can actually run in any mode. Memory pager, CRAM, hell knows what else. It reminds me of contemporary PCs which need a sophisticated HW initialization. Not very ZX-ish.
But since we categorize prods and not platforms, all upper mentioned is a bullshit.
If Pentagon prod runs on 128k, +2/3 etc, at least it doesn't crash or reset - it is a ZX category.
If it needs sprites, 16 colors per pixel, complex memory pager, whatever - Enhanced.
That's what I think.
> I think everyone would like to be able to return to voting on productions in these categories based on merit
That's something that never was in case of TS-Conf prods. There is a "sect" (they even call themselves so and are proud of that - do you need citations?) that comes to pouet.net (and other resources) as one if it concerns a demo by one of them. This "sect" works as a vacuum cleaner for ZX Spectrum scene. And it changes people a lot, not in a good way (do you need citations?).
> Seems to me people are fairly happy with the two categories
What people are happy? Vast majority of Russian sceners rarely visit pouët.net or don't visit it at all. How can we judge the whole society by one flash-mob?
>Also, to be honest, if I were you if it wasn't something I 100% couldn't live with at this point, I'd just shut up about it.
If nobody will fight trolls (remember how they call their hardware non-Spectrum in their IRC but defend its ZX platform here!), thieves (remember those stolen games that were "made for their hardware"!), liars (remember faking the group and the compo result!), vandals (remember zx-pk.ru cracking and attack on SpeccyWiki by them!), what will come to the demoscene? This situation might not touch you, as you are not even a Speccy scener. But you see what people are on one side and what people are on another. What world you want to live in?
That's something that never was in case of TS-Conf prods. There is a "sect" (they even call themselves so and are proud of that - do you need citations?) that comes to pouet.net (and other resources) as one if it concerns a demo by one of them. This "sect" works as a vacuum cleaner for ZX Spectrum scene. And it changes people a lot, not in a good way (do you need citations?).
> Seems to me people are fairly happy with the two categories
What people are happy? Vast majority of Russian sceners rarely visit pouët.net or don't visit it at all. How can we judge the whole society by one flash-mob?
>Also, to be honest, if I were you if it wasn't something I 100% couldn't live with at this point, I'd just shut up about it.
If nobody will fight trolls (remember how they call their hardware non-Spectrum in their IRC but defend its ZX platform here!), thieves (remember those stolen games that were "made for their hardware"!), liars (remember faking the group and the compo result!), vandals (remember zx-pk.ru cracking and attack on SpeccyWiki by them!), what will come to the demoscene? This situation might not touch you, as you are not even a Speccy scener. But you see what people are on one side and what people are on another. What world you want to live in?
>Anyway ATM may count as "Extended" with EGA-style graphics.
These graphics are made with the same memory counter as 6912-mode (so that's why the crazy addressing), with colours controlled via border and Beta 128 Disk Interface ports, with no scroll registers nor line interrupts! Have you tried to code for this? How can this be in one category with PutSprite(X,Y,N) prods?
These graphics are made with the same memory counter as 6912-mode (so that's why the crazy addressing), with colours controlled via border and Beta 128 Disk Interface ports, with no scroll registers nor line interrupts! Have you tried to code for this? How can this be in one category with PutSprite(X,Y,N) prods?
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One where both stop trying to bludgeon each other with electrons!by Alone_Coder:
But you see what people are on one side and what people are on another. What world you want to live in?
6912 - Zx-spectrum, rest of it - Enchanced. It's all.
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Have you tried to code for this?
Yes, I do. You asked via LVD me to make 1K intro for Di:Halt. Nobody borrow to help with colors. Your sources has been unreadable.
So, attempt to explore ATM was a bad idea. Anyway your demos proove a huge amount of colors.
It is not a Spectrum.
No use. The 6912 of the original is combined with PAL filtering and concrete timing for multicolors that doesn't hold even for Investronica/Amstrad's 128K. A lot of Speccy demos use other setups, including those for Timex, Byte, Pentagon, Scorpion, Profi, and ATM (even for the demos that only use 6912), and MB-02/Datagear addon. PAL filtering is ignored at all in all the modern prods.
If you want only 6912 without everything, then what comes to software written for this mode on Sam Coupe? Or what if a new FPGA firmware appears with 6912 mode plus a blitter or a hardware 3D engine specially for 6912? We must think about the future.
Needless to say that 6912/no-6912 distinction for Spectrum/non-Spectrum appeared only recently (and surprisingly, connected to the TS-Labs' "sect"), while all the main lines of xUSSR clones (Pentagon, Scorpion, ATM, Profi, Byte) had extra modes accessible out of the box or with simple circuitry published everywhere. Read the old papers, Fidonet and ZX-Net archives, they are online.
If you want only 6912 without everything, then what comes to software written for this mode on Sam Coupe? Or what if a new FPGA firmware appears with 6912 mode plus a blitter or a hardware 3D engine specially for 6912? We must think about the future.
Needless to say that 6912/no-6912 distinction for Spectrum/non-Spectrum appeared only recently (and surprisingly, connected to the TS-Labs' "sect"), while all the main lines of xUSSR clones (Pentagon, Scorpion, ATM, Profi, Byte) had extra modes accessible out of the box or with simple circuitry published everywhere. Read the old papers, Fidonet and ZX-Net archives, they are online.