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manifesto by Carillon & Cyberiad [web]
screenshot added by robotriot on 2001-08-30 00:08:03
platform :
type :
release date : august 2001
  • 22
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popularity : 64%
  • 0.12
alltime top: #9013
added on the 2001-08-30 00:08:03 by robotriot robotriot

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the text contains a lot of truth - but why did they have to express their feelings in such an ugly way and why did they need more than 300kb for it?
added on the 2001-08-30 00:09:39 by robotriot robotriot
take that!
rulez added on the 2001-08-30 00:40:09 by _-_-__ _-_-__
for sure the text is true, too bad that the "production" is everything but artistic, but they might have done it like that to emphasize the content and not the container, dunno

added on the 2001-08-30 00:47:31 by p01 p01
somebody had to say it.

...but i'm afraid not the right ppl will listen.
rulez added on the 2001-08-30 02:32:55 by cer cer
this is true! but also what everyone has been screaming since the break of 3D-hardware on personal pc's
rulez added on the 2001-08-30 08:53:04 by rasmus/loonies rasmus/loonies
rulez added on the 2001-08-30 19:27:20 by sivu sivu
rulez added on the 2001-08-30 19:52:39 by jar jar
wizardry! :)

uhm at least anyone who expresses himself best in 3d flyby should do so. since when demoscene had rules...

the idea behind it all was to show off effects on machines, noone ever expected. if anyone COULD do this on nowadays machines, we could keep up this theory.
added on the 2001-08-30 20:01:08 by PigPen PigPen
nah it just means you lack imagination. stuck in a loop. slave of the form. lazy.
added on the 2001-08-30 20:14:59 by _-_-__ _-_-__
dogmas suck.
added on the 2001-08-31 08:33:05 by bhead bhead
Dissing 3d scenes then praising Maturefurk.. sorry but isn't that just a little hypocritical?
added on the 2001-08-31 15:12:08 by phoenix phoenix
The message is good... but start by giving example, not by using a .lwo for this thing
sucks added on the 2001-09-01 10:59:28 by mac mac
Even if i like some CNCD's prods, i think nobody should feel allowed to teach others how to make demos. I really don't understand, this prod seems to go against its own message, as this kind of "lessons" are as many limitations to creativity. Let people do what they want, give your opinion afterwards, but don't try to set up some rules.

By the way, the 'soviet propaganda' design is not so bad, in my opinion, as it fits quite well the message :)
sucks added on the 2001-09-01 18:51:19 by alexkidd alexkidd
We should be creative ? Show the example and don't use those fucking 01110101101010100111101011 cyber-technoïdo-matrix-wannabedesign-crap. Oldschool is boring, newschool is better-looking-oldschool, also boring.
Hnzmssv is the only way.
sucks added on the 2001-09-01 19:08:45 by Splif Splif
cool that sorta stuff really help the scene. thanks a lot cncd.
the rules sucks, the art sucks (and it sux even more if it was intended to emphasize the content - that would be just poor). ever heard about artists ?

after writing this comment i thought that maybe cncd did this as a parody (which explains the soviet look), and they don't wish this kind of message to be heard at all - if it's so, then well done.
sucks added on the 2001-09-01 19:09:15 by stil stil
hum... I hadn't really paid attention to this "prod", but after all CNCD might wanted to push a bit the scene like ELITE GROUP ( and others before them ) did with their arrogant attitude few months ago

if it's really their purpose I think it's ok
added on the 2001-09-01 19:51:34 by p01 p01
this was really a bad idea... we could do the same in 4kb...
sucks added on the 2001-09-01 20:51:09 by d-lee d-lee
It's not as easy as the boys from CNCD want it to be... I agree with old and new skool being stagnant, but honestly, after mastering 3D, how could we possibly revolutionize beyond that? By going 4D?

This reminds me of a struggle fought in the art world so long ago... I believe the outcome was this: NOONE can define what art is. It simply *is* art in the eye of the beholder. I believe that the same applies to demos as well.

Therefore, laissez faire, laissez passer.
added on the 2001-09-02 01:55:20 by Vip Vip
Did you people even bother to read the texts?

I just can't believe that if someone tells you that texture mapping is not an effect,
you start screaming at him that it is your own way to make demos.
Do you really argue with a statement like that?

If you think that a 3dengine that can push 5 polygons/second more than the newest quake is
creative and artistic, then hell, that sorta creativity ought to be killed.

You say that the rules suck. What rules??
Are you against coders contributing to demos in other ways than writing engines?
Isn't that killing *their* creativity?

If you think that 3d is the ultimate effect and no-one in the world can create
anything better-looking and more creative than a 3d engine,
then you shouldn't worry about someone killing your creativity.

If you have no new ideas they cannot be killed.
rulez added on the 2001-09-02 11:11:19 by noid noid
some times ago, texturemapping was an enormous effort btw, and nowadays demos are way more than texturemapped cubes my dear.

i don't shout at them, i laugh at them. the text is crap and well done for dudes finding every known-group release great and true. after watching this one 4 times it started out to be a hell of fun for me.
the writing is quite amusing, the environment is really worth a look (black quads ARE an effect, and moreover creative), the lwo, the ripped music. damn i take this a joke. believe in it.
sucks added on the 2001-09-02 11:54:41 by PigPen PigPen
i can't believe you guys are discussing the technical aspect of the demo while it's not the point (+ it wasn't released on some party / whatever). The package is obviously not meant to be discussed. Have you forgotten the good old text-demos or cracktros? Would you have preferred them to write that text in some stupid hugi diskmag? (probably yes, then you wouldn't have been reading it)
... Back to my melonstration marathon.
added on the 2001-09-02 15:13:09 by _-_-__ _-_-__
stop discussing this! read it and either live up to it (as i intend to) or disregard!
j'm'appell' jibi!
j'rap' et j'déchire!
jp'arle de uzi
d'rap' et désir!

ouaish ouaish CNCD

bon a part ça la killer et la closer c'est dla bombe donc...
(non je traduis pas en anglais comme le gros connard ke je suis)
added on the 2001-09-02 18:28:38 by jibe jibe
Oh, and by the way the production probably refers to the "dogma95 manifesto", also known as "vow of chastity" which was created by a collective of film directors composed of persons like Lars von Tries, who denounced the current state of movie-making. (http://www.dogme95.dk)
added on the 2001-09-02 23:24:33 by _-_-__ _-_-__
no it's definitely this
added on the 2001-09-02 23:35:29 by PigPen PigPen
being creative and innovative means not following any rules.

ie, this dogma is useless.
sucks added on the 2001-09-02 23:59:21 by _ _

Got me *way* wrong. I tried discussing this at a general level, looking at the demo scene from a neutral point of view and as such, I think that the demo scene strives to be an artistic genre. Therefore, what is a beautiful demo cannot be defined, and CNCD's effort is commendable, but only partially valid.

But, if you want my personal view: for me, a 'good' demo would mean solid coherent design with smooth sweet gfx and music. Something which keeps ya on the tip of your chair when watching it. Personal PC top 5: Heaven 7, Stash, Kkowboy, Melrose Space, The Fulcrum. If that makes me a 3D junkie, then I'm a 3D junkie by your standards.

And about the 3D comment, maybe I wasn't clear enough there; what I meant, is this: we more or less mastered 2D effects. We more or less mastered 3D effects. So what's left to master (technically)? I guess this is what CNCD meant with "watch the science scene". Artistically speaking it's a whole other matter, of course.
added on the 2001-09-03 00:09:52 by Vip Vip
Like _ said :).
added on the 2001-09-03 00:12:38 by Vip Vip
you mean, uh, "innovative" à la microsoft?
added on the 2001-09-03 08:39:06 by _-_-__ _-_-__
danish dogme film rules!!
we both kinda missed the point in each other's messages =)

what I meant was that you can do pretty much anything on modern hardware (limiting ourselves to faking 3d on a dimensional screen), so it gets hard to say that this hasn't been done before, until someone goes and does it. If you can't come up with some new stuff, that doesn't mean that everything has been done. =)

The way I understood the message this demo sends would be something like go and to stuff that makes other people think "damn, why didn't I think of that first".

But anyway, enough talk, go
make some code/design/music/gfx. And this goes for all of you. =)

added on the 2001-09-03 14:48:06 by noid noid
this is an uncreative and in-innovative demo asking the scene why all demos are so uncreative and in-innovative. actually this demo would have been lame ten years ago on amiga, not talking about today's hardware and style.

instead of printing unreadable read letters on brown background blaming the scene, they should try to do something innovate and creative.

with modern hardware, only imagination and time are your limit. isn't that the situation designers were dreaming of the last 15 years?
added on the 2001-09-03 15:31:51 by chaos chaos
yea, it's not like horizontal cool was anything special.
added on the 2001-09-03 15:37:20 by robotriot robotriot
say, if someone makes c64 play mp3s, well, that's impressive. but if it was easy and everyone was doing it (not for a unique sound but that they can finally play their favourite music), it would be braindamaged.

kidding, really, it's great when we can finally have stuff which is only slightly inferior than something more professional. (like music videos)
added on the 2001-09-03 17:17:47 by 216 216
matvei: point taken :) - I'll get to work now.

_216: I already found it pretty impressive that they made a realtime fullscreen picture x/y distorter on a c64 (check out Parts/Oxyron).

Success to everyone during their creative brainstorming over a new way to do demos... It would be nice to have a session on this BB with all these great minds packed together, but that'd kinda ruin the surprise :).
added on the 2001-09-04 01:22:58 by Vip Vip
No rating here, but I think it's quite interesting that people actually manage to interprete a demo differently whose message is *absolutely* OBVIOUS and CLEAR.
C'mon, haven't you got anything better to do? :)
added on the 2001-09-04 09:39:10 by ryg ryg
I just hate to add one more message, since it's not a comment at all, but ryg, I'd like to know what do you think this obvious and clear message is? :)

If this keeps up maybe someone ought to start a new discussion thread instead of abusing the comments section ...
added on the 2001-09-04 12:09:34 by noid noid
Nobody's forcing you to live by the manifesto, so leave it be if you hate it. cncd does raise some valid points, but the sheer arrogance this prod oozes kinda makes it lose it's bearing for me.

Besides, it's ugly. Overzealous deisgn doesn't automatically make it worth it

One thing is clearly missing in the manifesto: using stuff that ain't yours is heresy. Stop ripping commerical music.

Interestingly enough, they seem quite content with playing a 'Wizardry' sid, so i guess we know why it's missing =)
added on the 2001-09-04 12:55:09 by Shifter Shifter
Nobody's forcing you to live by the manifesto, so leave it be if you hate it. cncd does raise some valid points, but the sheer arrogance this prod oozes kinda makes it lose it's bearing for me.

Besides, it's ugly. Overzealous deisgn doesn't automatically make it worth it

One thing is clearly missing in the manifesto: using stuff that ain't yours is heresy. Stop ripping commerical music.

Interestingly enough, they seem quite content with playing a 'Wizardry' sid, so i guess we know why it's missing =)
added on the 2001-09-04 12:59:57 by Shifter Shifter

CNCD said what i've always thought of most demos.. i get bored with them, you have all killed your creativity with all these damn stupid and boring 3d shows.. having observed the situation from different angles and political views you've all provided, i came to the simple conclusion that CNCD is right. (and setting an example here)
And by the way, the point didn't go anywhere even though they played the wizardry sid. or used .lwo. its just using the most suitable technology to achive your point. what is the point of demos? we've evolved!
rulez added on the 2001-09-04 13:32:53 by derpiipo derpiipo
I don't really care about what others think about demomaking, I care about quality and style.

With the same amount of key clicks you find in this page you can maybe code an effect... is Pouet turning into a Newsgroup?
added on the 2001-09-04 17:56:09 by dixan dixan
derpiipo: no. Creativity doesn't get 'killed', it's merely what *you* think creativity is. Believe it or not, but there are other people out there who make 3D shows and feel pretty darn creative when doing it. To them, it's art. And you either watch and like it, or move on and try to find out what 'art' means to you.

Yeah, there should be discussion thread on this.

And as for the layout, it's somehow a ref to cuban revolution style propaganda... the colorscheme is plain ugly, so max the resolution if you don't want to end up with a headache.
added on the 2001-09-04 19:27:19 by Vip Vip
matvei: It's called manifesto, and consists of a text writer with background effect. To get the message you just have to read the text. So where's the problem, please?
added on the 2001-09-04 20:46:57 by ryg ryg
we're not talking about creativity in its lowest sense (as in being able to create things) but creativity in introducing and realizing concepts within demos, creativity in the way you use the machine (that will make you look at a 3d card not just as a polyfiller inside a 3dmax scene replayer but as a tool which can be abused) creativity in exploiting the medium to its full extent and not just use demos to mimic other forms (like animations and music videos) ... its there, in their text! dammit :)
added on the 2001-09-04 21:00:25 by _-_-__ _-_-__
"demos should not look like bad flash animations at 10 times the size."

that belongs in there, somewhere.

sorry, cncd -- you have some valid points, but they're lost somewhere between the arrogance and the lackluster design/programming.
sucks added on the 2001-09-05 11:38:06 by uhlume uhlume
It was drowned in a sea of 'it sucks' and 'it rules' comments, but Phoenix/Hornet hit the jackpot here:

What more is a Maturefurk demo than a 3d player, the kind that they denounce in their manifesto? They clearly make no sense.
added on the 2001-09-05 16:00:37 by Shifter Shifter
Imagine some no-name group putting this thing out. Would you care?

The best way to bring out change is to give example, not to whine. Wait, I'm whining! :)
sucks added on the 2001-09-05 18:06:53 by Jare Jare
ah well, the arrogance is just relative =) i think they have a few strong points. actually it made me decide not to write the 3dsmax scene exporter i was planning ;)
rulez added on the 2001-09-06 23:28:11 by superplek superplek
I do think that everybody should take what he wants from this manifesto. They just expressed their point, if they feel better now so i'm happy for them;) You all shouldn't care so much of this. Just stop feeling agressed! Do your art, export your points and all will do fine;) You'll always have ppl saying you're doing shit, but at least you're doing something, and you're doing it for yourself and the ppl that will like it, not for flames. I'm not found of this demo, but it's just MY point (whitch isn't a reference). I do think that if you do your best (or try to do it) you've got to be encouraged;) Everybody should stop focussing on hardware or OS usage, the creativity isn't defined by the media you used nor by the difficulties of your FXs. I also dont care of how a demo imitates an animation or a videoclip coz if it looks good, if I had pleasure to watch it, the rest isn't important! I gotta admit that i had no pleasure reading a moving text... Also stop caring of the arrogance of some sceners, some of them NEEDS it to feel right. If it's their way to be, if they need to think that others cannot be creative and are swimming in a "pool of shit", so just go your way and try not to cross their road, it's better for everybody;) If you do not agree with me dont worry, coz your point is as important as mine.
added on the 2001-09-19 12:09:56 by alkama alkama
alkama i disagree with you! :D
added on the 2001-09-19 12:30:55 by _-_-__ _-_-__
Alkama: you're a wise man.
Wiser than CNCD guys and this manifesto, i think :)

Do demos, do art, and don't teach to other "how to make demos" or "what is art".
Demoscene is free, is fun, so why try to impose some "rules" ?

I feel very angry when men separates "oldschool", "newschool" and so on.
What is the interest?
Do you think really that "newbies" feels to turn themselves to "oldschool" after a thousand of guys criticizes stupidly their "newschool" prod, just because "there are using 3D Api instead of coding that themselves"?
Yes it's easier to learn doing demos with API, etc.. but who care? do you prefer that the "newschool" disappear? do you think the scene must die only coz' "oldschool" is "better"?

Free your mind and consider how the scene evoluates in terms of design and creativity with the "newschool".
Let us stop separating things which do not have to be.
A scener says in another forum that there is "two types of demomakers on pouet.net".
Sorry, I really hope we are _all_ differents.

Ok, it's just a "dogma" purpose, and never force them to follow it, but i dislike the idea.
sucks added on the 2001-09-19 14:47:47 by elric elric
" Yes it's easier to learn doing demos with API, etc.. "

mister.. that sentence stinks and is not based on experience nor truth, i suppose.

doing a few simple and basic effects in mcga mode using Turbo Pascal, any C compiler or a assembler probably cost the newbie of the past just as much time as the 'nuskool' newbie spends on something stupid like setting up a window or a d3d device for the first time. and then he probably has nothing more than a black screen to look at :)

so don't let me see one of you saying that again.

added on the 2001-09-19 19:08:38 by superplek superplek
hehe ok one point for you :)

(sorry i realize my sentence is a little bit excessive and displaced from original suject, but this manifesto make me angry :)
added on the 2001-09-19 20:40:53 by elric elric
superplek: uhm. i'd say it's a lot harder making your own routine to fill a triangle, than to use four opengl function calls to fill a triangle.

added on the 2001-10-10 01:24:52 by _ _
If this demo is Artistic, this is subjective. Well,.. it's oldskool I like it for that and nice chip music. However why black rectangles and ugly colors?
added on the 2001-10-10 10:28:38 by Optimus Optimus
Oh man! I have read all the threads. I guess this simple intro succeeded in raising it's popularity only by your discussion :)

You are crazy! I don't care. People tell me to leave my CPC! Don't care too! Do what you want, do Oldskool, do newskool, do accel, do software, do win, do linux, do CPC, do C64, do Quickbasic, do Flash, just do and fuck the others! I am gonna open my CPC now and work 90% of my sceneactivity there for some months :)
And I will do software just for the sake of that even if people tell me to start OpenGL! Do what you like and have fun!
added on the 2001-10-10 10:52:36 by Optimus Optimus
It seems cncd hit the right nerve with this prod=)

Anyway. it rules. bigtime!
rulez added on the 2001-10-25 21:00:06 by uncle-x uncle-x
cncd didn't want people to obey them. just look at this page. it did it's purpose.

and yes, it's very ugly ;)
added on the 2001-11-08 03:26:50 by hempest hempest
_very_ ugly
added on the 2002-01-16 18:54:08 by chavez chavez
It was somewhat amusing. Both, the demo and the discussion around it.
added on the 2002-01-16 19:29:35 by tomaes tomaes
in any case, arrogance is a virtue
rulez added on the 2002-02-09 06:52:25 by reed reed
my mouse could've done better
sucks added on the 2002-02-15 10:30:04 by Zzed Zzed
i love you reed ]=)
added on the 2002-02-15 11:20:19 by gekko gekko
my dearest gekko, will you marry me?
added on the 2002-03-13 06:14:14 by reed reed
A dogma for demos is a great idea, but some other people could have done it better. And visually this is just crap,
sucks added on the 2002-03-13 16:42:11 by DiamonDie DiamonDie
reed: Ignorance is bizk.. ehrmm.. bliss ... and yes arrogance is a virtue :)
added on the 2002-03-13 18:58:51 by bizken bizken
hey diamondie, visually you're just crap
added on the 2002-04-19 01:50:23 by reed reed
rulez added on the 2002-11-14 14:26:11 by distance distance
rulez added on the 2002-11-28 19:14:02 by break break
What was I drinking?
rulez added on the 2004-10-23 11:44:20 by Optimus Optimus
rulez added on the 2005-04-23 06:24:10 by psenough psenough
sucks added on the 2005-04-23 09:32:06 by skrebbel skrebbel
The scene is dead
rulez added on the 2005-04-23 09:48:11 by Preacher Preacher
found it ugly ...
A nice example how a "you all suck" message can take 300k.
added on the 2005-08-22 21:04:14 by Gargaj Gargaj
..nowadays even games look better than demos..

nowadays even odsm-prods look better than THIS!!
sucks added on the 2006-09-27 00:17:02 by v3nom v3nom
i know that fucking tune and it says to me "pls dont vote me down"..and i say m k
added on the 2006-09-27 00:27:10 by 4kum4 4kum4
rules for a succesful demo...
sucks added on the 2006-09-27 00:31:11 by annieeee annieeee
cncd understood in 2001 what i ultimately understood in 2006. res.
added on the 2006-09-27 03:21:11 by reed reed
always right!
rulez added on the 2006-10-26 12:29:57 by uns3en_ uns3en_
actually they were before their time when demanding more ideas and no more new "engines". I salute them!
rulez added on the 2008-06-21 02:13:49 by Paralax Paralax
For the idea!
rulez added on the 2008-07-02 23:19:34 by d3pth d3pth
still true!
rulez added on the 2010-04-06 00:49:58 by eetu eetu
I think yes.. :D
added on the 2010-07-13 13:12:24 by leGend leGend
"we need happy demos"
rulez added on the 2012-11-29 10:09:50 by kimi kardashian kimi kardashian
rulez added on the 2014-09-06 11:46:05 by mog mog
I support this public service announcement.
rulez added on the 2014-10-11 02:05:46 by noby noby
what mac said
added on the 2021-01-05 00:49:45 by T$ T$

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