The state of the demoscene: 1991 - 2011
category: general [glöplog]
keops has leading on the amiga/atari issue...
gloom's discoveries are interesting though and i appreciate the effort. the figures regarding releases in the new millennium (i.e. the pouet era) are probably balls-on accurate. the earlier figures are kind of beside the point for two reasons:
a) the production types chosen are (of course) representative of the modern scene and a limited subset. the popularity of 4k/64k productions, for example, was pretty much dictated by the major parties at the time. for a number of years amiga had 40k's, not 64k's. and before 40k's it just had intros.
b) any kind of historical overview should be based on accurate numbers, and there's some difficulty in obtaining accurate numbers of the "pre-pouet" demoscene. for instance, i didn't do an sql query or anything, but apparently there are 13587 amiga productions listed on pouet. there are 28706 amiga productions listed over at bitworld. that's quite a difference. (those numbers are the total number, not demo/64k/4k.)
personally, just in case anyone can be bothered, it'd be interesting to see cross-platform statistics of everything - not necessarily the traditional "creative" output - that was produced within the scene in the past. that'd give a more accurate image of the shifts in the focus of the scene (e.g. cracking vs demos), the shifts in platforms (e.g. c64 to amiga), and the popularity trends of releases (like the thousands of packdisks on the amiga). the actual possibilities of course depend on whether sites similar to csdb or bitworld exist for other platforms. i really don't know.
but i digress - i do recognize that what i just wrote wasn't the point of gloom's study, after all, the title is the "state", not the "past", of the demoscene. it does succeed in showcasing the general .. downfall, if you will, of the scene.
oh and on the other points raised i agree with smash and plek :)
gloom's discoveries are interesting though and i appreciate the effort. the figures regarding releases in the new millennium (i.e. the pouet era) are probably balls-on accurate. the earlier figures are kind of beside the point for two reasons:
a) the production types chosen are (of course) representative of the modern scene and a limited subset. the popularity of 4k/64k productions, for example, was pretty much dictated by the major parties at the time. for a number of years amiga had 40k's, not 64k's. and before 40k's it just had intros.
b) any kind of historical overview should be based on accurate numbers, and there's some difficulty in obtaining accurate numbers of the "pre-pouet" demoscene. for instance, i didn't do an sql query or anything, but apparently there are 13587 amiga productions listed on pouet. there are 28706 amiga productions listed over at bitworld. that's quite a difference. (those numbers are the total number, not demo/64k/4k.)
personally, just in case anyone can be bothered, it'd be interesting to see cross-platform statistics of everything - not necessarily the traditional "creative" output - that was produced within the scene in the past. that'd give a more accurate image of the shifts in the focus of the scene (e.g. cracking vs demos), the shifts in platforms (e.g. c64 to amiga), and the popularity trends of releases (like the thousands of packdisks on the amiga). the actual possibilities of course depend on whether sites similar to csdb or bitworld exist for other platforms. i really don't know.
but i digress - i do recognize that what i just wrote wasn't the point of gloom's study, after all, the title is the "state", not the "past", of the demoscene. it does succeed in showcasing the general .. downfall, if you will, of the scene.
oh and on the other points raised i agree with smash and plek :)
re the categories idea, which I wanted to reply to earlier but dayjob is crazy right now
1) Nobody gets forced into a box (I don't like that idea either).
In the IGA rules example, the only people who have to be in
any particular category are professionals, who must compete at Master level, and people
who have won Best In Show at an international event (different in the costuming world).
Otherwise people choose their own level. I suspect some accomplished folks try to level
the playing field also by entering under pseudonyms, because name rec helps
as much as quality; you watch with preconceptions.
2) Fragmenting compos
That's precisely why I advocated this kind of approach for larger parties, who can
afford it. If you have 20+ demos in the competition, or are even screening
them out, maybe it's time to make different divisions instead of making a cut.
And announce those divisions after the compo is shown, listing the demos
that way in Partymeister, not before they're shown, so people don't watch
them with preconceptions.
I also like the idea of a best newcomer award that comes with some kind of moral support framework
some kind of elder brother framework, to encourage the newcomer to make another demo,
to avoid the Second Reality effect (ok, they weren't newcomers, but you get the idea). I suspect the history
of the demoscene is littered with groups and individuals who do something awesome
and think they can never make anything else that will measure up to that effort,
and so they never make anything else. It seems to me that this is a tremendous loss to the scene.
re: what kb and Gloom and others said about taking off from simple concepts
It occurs to me that fast compos might be helpful in this regard.
Fast compos at the Montreal event I run didn't produce any magnum opus, but they goaded
people to PRODUCE, not just because of the limited time, but because of the introduction of a theme.
Perhaps just as a poetic form can give a poet inspiration to build within that structure,
find ways to play with it, so too themed, time and size limited compos with low stakes
can encourage newcomers to give it their best shot.
1) Nobody gets forced into a box (I don't like that idea either).
In the IGA rules example, the only people who have to be in
any particular category are professionals, who must compete at Master level, and people
who have won Best In Show at an international event (different in the costuming world).
Otherwise people choose their own level. I suspect some accomplished folks try to level
the playing field also by entering under pseudonyms, because name rec helps
as much as quality; you watch with preconceptions.
2) Fragmenting compos
That's precisely why I advocated this kind of approach for larger parties, who can
afford it. If you have 20+ demos in the competition, or are even screening
them out, maybe it's time to make different divisions instead of making a cut.
And announce those divisions after the compo is shown, listing the demos
that way in Partymeister, not before they're shown, so people don't watch
them with preconceptions.
I also like the idea of a best newcomer award that comes with some kind of moral support framework
some kind of elder brother framework, to encourage the newcomer to make another demo,
to avoid the Second Reality effect (ok, they weren't newcomers, but you get the idea). I suspect the history
of the demoscene is littered with groups and individuals who do something awesome
and think they can never make anything else that will measure up to that effort,
and so they never make anything else. It seems to me that this is a tremendous loss to the scene.
re: what kb and Gloom and others said about taking off from simple concepts
It occurs to me that fast compos might be helpful in this regard.
Fast compos at the Montreal event I run didn't produce any magnum opus, but they goaded
people to PRODUCE, not just because of the limited time, but because of the introduction of a theme.
Perhaps just as a poetic form can give a poet inspiration to build within that structure,
find ways to play with it, so too themed, time and size limited compos with low stakes
can encourage newcomers to give it their best shot.
oh and re the IGA example, the way IGA masquerades are structured is that they award 1-3 places in each division, then a best workmanship in each division, then a Best in Show.
re "but i digress - i do recognize that what i just wrote wasn't the point of gloom's study, after all, the title is the 'state', not the 'past', of the demoscene. it does succeed in showcasing the general .. downfall, if you will, of the scene."
But how can you address the current state of a thing without understanding its past?
re "but i digress - i do recognize that what i just wrote wasn't the point of gloom's study, after all, the title is the 'state', not the 'past', of the demoscene. it does succeed in showcasing the general .. downfall, if you will, of the scene."
But how can you address the current state of a thing without understanding its past?
really, you can't. thats where n00bs come in.
[ aside: Nice thing about the North American scene -- if you want to play in the farm leagues, we have some hard hitters, but we're a good place to start out. And I know of at least two live parties that take remote entries . . . : D
Newcomers, submit! ]
I think, that the claims are simply too high nowadays... Comming up with a Demo full of GFX-Work and cool music isn't enough anymore. All i can see is 3D Models and camera-movements...
the really last enjoyable demo i've seen was ASD's Lifeforce! There was a lot of cool stuff in paint , music AND coding art...
most demos are only coding art... and that doesn't always fit my taste anymore...
especially i do miss a lot of fun in demos like in past with budbrain demo for exsample. :)
happy discussing here :)
the really last enjoyable demo i've seen was ASD's Lifeforce! There was a lot of cool stuff in paint , music AND coding art...
most demos are only coding art... and that doesn't always fit my taste anymore...
especially i do miss a lot of fun in demos like in past with budbrain demo for exsample. :)
happy discussing here :)
my point was this: if you don't know how to add the number of apples in one basket and the other, you wouldn't know how many apples there where in total. the n00b wouldn't know, he wouldnt even have a concept of it to understand it.
to all the people complaining it is too hard: be quiet and just make something. And submit it under a pseudonym if you're embarassed. Sheesh.
No, I've never made a horrible padding entry for someone else's party so a category wouldn't be cancelled and a friend could still compete . . .
*looks innocent*
: D
No, I've never made a horrible padding entry for someone else's party so a category wouldn't be cancelled and a friend could still compete . . .
*looks innocent*
: D
metoikos: what i meant by that was that regarding the conclusions you can draw from the statistics, the amount of detail you have from the past doesn't make that much of a difference - the end result is still pretty much the same. and i think we all knew it already. it'd just be interesting to be able to analyse the past based on the best possible estimates that are currently available, that's all.
rudi: so... what exactly IS your point? :D
rudi: so... what exactly IS your point? :D
I wonder too. I think he's on drugs.
reed: hehe :) well, i just had to come up with something. quote:
Quote:
. maybe it was a bad example, but using numbers was the only example i came up with. so if a n00b came in the demoscene today, had no grasp of the demoscene at all, no knowledge about the history. how would he know? i dont think he would know that much really :PBut how can you address the current state of a thing without understanding its past?
gasman and others: the parties/prods-graph isn't about the lines crossing, it's about the relationship between the two -- the aspect if you will. The only way to visualize it is to bring the graphs closer together, and the multiplier is simply a way to make sure the lines are visible in the same spectrum, that is all.
well well well...
all the results are desesperatly SIMPLE to explain.
since several years most of people forgot the FUN in the demoscene and focused in releasing BIG demos in order to COMPETE into demoparties, and no groups are doing little, small, fast made and numerous fun prods.
and even if you try, you will be flamed by "not enough content" or "it's not demo", etc... etc...
where is the golden era when Melon Dezign flooded us with tons randomly-well-done-but-always-fun prods each years?
-> LESS prods.
you are young? you are the 1% who don't care about facebook/twitter/youtube/etc... ? make a demos!
- "herm noes, there's too much thing to learn to do a decent average demo, and with today's standard we will be flamed if we do anything than a blockbuster-demo"
-> LESS groups.
I am LE VERY SURE that the numbers of groups/demos is decreasing slowly because we are all getting old (yes ok, i am already old) and there's not enough young people making demos (hopefully we got some), and also because the requirements to do an average prod for today's standard are really high, and not only for the coder! you just have to see how people here flame bad mixed music, or not so good vocal performance ;)
Despite these "looking-sad" charts, I think the demoscene is stronger than ever because with time passing on us, only the most passionate people are still here!
DEMO OR DIE!
all the results are desesperatly SIMPLE to explain.
since several years most of people forgot the FUN in the demoscene and focused in releasing BIG demos in order to COMPETE into demoparties, and no groups are doing little, small, fast made and numerous fun prods.
and even if you try, you will be flamed by "not enough content" or "it's not demo", etc... etc...
where is the golden era when Melon Dezign flooded us with tons randomly-well-done-but-always-fun prods each years?
-> LESS prods.
you are young? you are the 1% who don't care about facebook/twitter/youtube/etc... ? make a demos!
- "herm noes, there's too much thing to learn to do a decent average demo, and with today's standard we will be flamed if we do anything than a blockbuster-demo"
-> LESS groups.
I am LE VERY SURE that the numbers of groups/demos is decreasing slowly because we are all getting old (yes ok, i am already old) and there's not enough young people making demos (hopefully we got some), and also because the requirements to do an average prod for today's standard are really high, and not only for the coder! you just have to see how people here flame bad mixed music, or not so good vocal performance ;)
Despite these "looking-sad" charts, I think the demoscene is stronger than ever because with time passing on us, only the most passionate people are still here!
DEMO OR DIE!
re reed - understood. I was sort of hoping the answer might be a little different, that the growth was in more different sorts of prods now . . . maybe more wild demos (on actual hardware, not guys jumping around in tentacle suits or stopmotion animation) or something.
re prods . . . it seems like folks get what makes people decide not to produce and to some extent ways to shortcircuit that tendency. Maybe more exploration of those shortcircuits would be useful.
I mean, based on my limited experience, it seems like the two keys are outreach and lowering barriers to entry. But that's vis a vis the novices.
What can help folks who have been in the scene keep producing and not lose their self-confidence? I hate watching groups who did amazing things stop producing (I bet you that's where all those 64Ks are going . . .)
re prods . . . it seems like folks get what makes people decide not to produce and to some extent ways to shortcircuit that tendency. Maybe more exploration of those shortcircuits would be useful.
I mean, based on my limited experience, it seems like the two keys are outreach and lowering barriers to entry. But that's vis a vis the novices.
What can help folks who have been in the scene keep producing and not lose their self-confidence? I hate watching groups who did amazing things stop producing (I bet you that's where all those 64Ks are going . . .)
also, is the key quantity or quality?
Of course, when you're not being technical it's more of a slippery notion, but it's part of the traditional historytelling to describe how demos went from being object shows to artsy as the technology got more badass (although I'm not sure whether that's a totally linear process, as it were?).
Of course, when you're not being technical it's more of a slippery notion, but it's part of the traditional historytelling to describe how demos went from being object shows to artsy as the technology got more badass (although I'm not sure whether that's a totally linear process, as it were?).
what rez sais is surely true, at least for the pc-scene. but looking at the c64 scene there still is a lot of fast-and-fun-prodding going on.
of course there are also blockbuster demos for the commie but the scene there seems to have made peace with its current status quo.
maybe its a view into the future for other platforms as well, maybe there just is no other scene like it and never will be (the pc is always progressing, after all).
of course there are also blockbuster demos for the commie but the scene there seems to have made peace with its current status quo.
maybe its a view into the future for other platforms as well, maybe there just is no other scene like it and never will be (the pc is always progressing, after all).
you cant have one without the other (quantity vs quality).
in my humblest opinion, when the different computing scenes go together into one scene, the demoscene, its the best thing about it being like that. i love watch c64 demos at demoparties, especially when they show some new or polished tricks that just blow you away. that damn machine will never stop! so to speak, people just like coding/working with those old 8-bit computers and those other retro-machines, maybe to exploit the 8-bit world. and thats what's special about the demoscene. you can hack together something beautiful on a old/retro computer if you want to.
in my humblest opinion, when the different computing scenes go together into one scene, the demoscene, its the best thing about it being like that. i love watch c64 demos at demoparties, especially when they show some new or polished tricks that just blow you away. that damn machine will never stop! so to speak, people just like coding/working with those old 8-bit computers and those other retro-machines, maybe to exploit the 8-bit world. and thats what's special about the demoscene. you can hack together something beautiful on a old/retro computer if you want to.
Gloom: thanks for the research work and the analysis!
typo here: "were the differntiating factors," I'm pretty sure you meant "differentiating", unless there's some fern I'm not aware of.
I would have liked to see an "other" category, both for prod-types as for platforms. I'm pretty sure that wild/animations/video entries rose a bit with the advent of cheap video-cameras. And like someone else said for 40k intros.
As for the discussion that's been going on: I think that small prods for small parties has always been there and will stay. Maybe it just needs more visibility?
Someone talked about the experience that varied from 91 to 2011. Seeing how ferris and his crew are doing, I wouldn't bet on that. However, what changed a lot is the average age, and thus, the available time to watch and make demos. I remember being VERY productive when I was 15, or even 20. Then I got a job. Then a girlfriend. I just can't imagine how some of us can do demos AND raise kids at the same time.
Add to that youtube and facebook that compete for computer-time, as well as video games and blogs, and there's no time left for demo-making!
typo here: "were the differntiating factors," I'm pretty sure you meant "differentiating", unless there's some fern I'm not aware of.
I would have liked to see an "other" category, both for prod-types as for platforms. I'm pretty sure that wild/animations/video entries rose a bit with the advent of cheap video-cameras. And like someone else said for 40k intros.
As for the discussion that's been going on: I think that small prods for small parties has always been there and will stay. Maybe it just needs more visibility?
Someone talked about the experience that varied from 91 to 2011. Seeing how ferris and his crew are doing, I wouldn't bet on that. However, what changed a lot is the average age, and thus, the available time to watch and make demos. I remember being VERY productive when I was 15, or even 20. Then I got a job. Then a girlfriend. I just can't imagine how some of us can do demos AND raise kids at the same time.
Add to that youtube and facebook that compete for computer-time, as well as video games and blogs, and there's no time left for demo-making!
Quote:
I just can't imagine how some of us can do demos AND raise kids at the same time.
simple, I sleep 4~5 hours by night :)
rez: Funny, that's also been my approach recently. :-)
personally i make demos because i really like doing it. not for the compos, pouet, fame or fortune or to save the scene, but because i find it really enjoyable - it's the one creative medium that i can work in effectively (my painting is shit) where nobody is telling me what to do and the only pressure is self-inflicted. like everyone i have other commitments, but i just prioritise making demos a little bit higher than e.g. tv and facebook. i work on routines all the time just because i cant help it. an idea bugs me until it gets done.
the point is, if you dont actually like making demos, don't. :) forcing people (or forcing yourself) to make demos whether they like it or not isnt a strategy that'll have particular longevity. if you like doing it, you probably cant help but do it.
if nobody _likes_ making demos anymore then maybe it should die off as a scene and we'll just kick stuff out on vimeo every now and again. :)
the point is, if you dont actually like making demos, don't. :) forcing people (or forcing yourself) to make demos whether they like it or not isnt a strategy that'll have particular longevity. if you like doing it, you probably cant help but do it.
if nobody _likes_ making demos anymore then maybe it should die off as a scene and we'll just kick stuff out on vimeo every now and again. :)
Suggestion: next time you feel like making a demo, instead of looking for other sceners to work with try asking a bunch of people from outside the scene if they'd like to contribute.
I just tried that and the result has been really good so far :D
I just tried that and the result has been really good so far :D
psonice: in the case of Smash, I think he's shown to manage that particular skill pretty well :)
Agreed, that suggestion was intended for everyone, not just smash :D
scene-graphs, lines crossing.