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Should we have 64k intro compo at Assembly Summer 2020 or something else instead?

category: parties [glöplog]
Last weekend was the Assembly Winter event which is also the point where we usually gather together with the compo crew to discuss about the upcoming summer event. We discussed a bit about is the 64k intro competition really something we should keep in Assembly Summer as there has been very low amount of entries after we took it back. So we decided to open up a thread here and ask what compo you would like to have at Assembly Summer. Would you like to have e.g. 256b or 8k rather than 64k compo?
added on the 2020-02-24 21:23:47 by rimina rimina
256b&64k!

8k is not interesting
added on the 2020-02-24 21:25:43 by nosfe nosfe
68k compo! ;)
added on the 2020-02-24 21:51:44 by v3nom v3nom
Imho, should allow people who buy a ticket to send one remote entry to the main compo.

I am one that would happily buy a ticket, and don't care about prizes. I always wanted to compete on Assembly, but can't go there physically.

Please consider that. Not sure if I could have something this year already (too close already, I guess) but next year I would most probably have something polished enough for such a high level and high quality event, knowing that I could submit remotely.

Thanks.
added on the 2020-02-24 22:06:03 by imerso imerso
My 2 cents:
Oldskool combined intro/demo compo
Amiga combined intro/demo compo
added on the 2020-02-24 22:20:35 by magic magic
imerso: erm, assembly has been accepting remote entries for most of it's compos without the need to buy a ticket for years now... https://www.assembly.org/summer19/demoscene/participate

back on topic: 256b seems to be the most trendy right now so i would go for that. but at the same time it feels like there are too many "coder" focused compos already at assembly (1k, 4k, one scene), so maybe it would make sense to just have one less compo overall?
added on the 2020-02-24 22:24:48 by psenough psenough
Quote:
Imho, should allow people who buy a ticket to send one remote entry to the main compo.

I am one that would happily buy a ticket, and don't care about prizes. I always wanted to compete on Assembly, but can't go there physically.

Please consider that. Not sure if I could have something this year already (too close already, I guess) but next year I would most probably have something polished enough for such a high level and high quality event, knowing that I could submit remotely.

Thanks.


Remote entries for real time compos have been possible few years now and I don't think that will change. So you can compete even if you can't be there physically.
added on the 2020-02-24 22:30:37 by rimina rimina
Did not notice that!!! AWESOME!!! Thanks!
added on the 2020-02-24 22:37:35 by imerso imerso
One advantage about having a 1k compo at Assembly is that very few other parties have one, so you get more interest from people saving up their 1k intros. You got 14 entries last year so that should be a good compo to hold onto.

So, how about 16k? It's a new limit for sceners to try, and might get more interest than trying to bring back 64k intros to a party with declining interest in them. (Revision already has 8k, and I don't know if there's enough demand for it at two major parties)

As for 256b, I would only consider it if there weren't both 1k and 4k already.
added on the 2020-02-24 22:43:18 by phoenix phoenix
I'm okay with something different.

Bring us 1k/8k/32k and nothing else for intros, you cowards.
added on the 2020-02-25 00:55:23 by Shifter Shifter
I find 64k too intimidating -- it is impossible to find enough time to fill it with content.

I wish there were more parties that had 8k. It is the ideal size. It is essentially 4x 4k, given that you've already paid for compression, synth, window, and rendering pipeline setup.
added on the 2020-02-25 06:55:40 by provod provod
16k or even 32k compo would be ossom indeed.
and yes, 256 byte "tinytro" is pretty hype these days but im not sure how the assembly crowd would react to such code-focussed stuff. also theres 1k already.
added on the 2020-02-25 11:14:43 by wysiwtf wysiwtf
Yes! Intro compos, please! Also, make sure you got Amigas among your compo machines!
added on the 2020-02-25 13:44:52 by ham ham
How about: RetroPie intro

I think this could be a nice combination of oldskool machines, retro consoles, low barrier for entry and ease of organization.

* RetroPie supports a lot of systems. I know that some of them require bios files to work, but still many.

* Developing for an emulator is easier than for hardware and there are resources and guides available: for example 8bitworkshop, SGDK and ZGB. Also can often use C or assembly.

* Organizers don't have to work with a myriad of devices and video signals.

Rules draft:
The entry must run on a stock RetroPie installation on Raspberry Pi 3 (or Debian PC).
Running time limit of 3 minutes including precalculation.
No size limit.

I don't know much about developing for old hardware and have only participated in making of one demo for Game Boy using the ZGB, but I liked how it was simultaneously easy and forced me to work with limitations and it would be interesting to do something like that again.
Beside the pc demo compo the 1k compo is one of the strongest compo at Assembly Summer. So it's obvious you must keep that compo.

As I read it somewhere, you are committed to organize no emulation compos only. Which is good imho. (I think the best method is pre run the entry on real hardware and capture it for the compo in advance).

As for me, I'd like to participate in 1k compo with a DOS entry. But not on a vintage computer, rather on a modern PC (like unlord wrote it also here). I wanna show what is possible today. I gonna use SSE, TrueColor and PCSpeaker.

This kind of intro is the type which I can run on any computer in my office or on any computer of my children. Please consider...

For the rest, I'm sure I also participate in a 256b intro compo, but I also think it's less interesting to the wider audience, and many parties already have one.
My opinion as a viewer (not a producer): keep the 64k compo, hoping for more prods over time. Because 64k is the most awesome compo in the demoscene.
added on the 2020-02-26 01:59:07 by wullon wullon
as a consumer.. 64k demos have always had a special part in the demoscene for me. as a producer.. i just don't have the time to make them any more, but i'd love to

maybe instead of asking whether the compo should be kept or not, we should ask why there are so few entries? if there were more entries the answer would be obvious - keep the compo!

making 64ks always seemed like the most effort (compared to smaller intros or full sized demos) to me. what help is available for someone who wants to start making 64k demos now? we need to help people if we want new blood. maybe we need a compofiller studio for 64k?

it wouldn't help this year's compo.. but if someone held a seminar/workshop on how to get started, that would help. no, i'm not volunteering :)
added on the 2020-02-26 09:32:39 by evilpaul evilpaul
Ivory can't promise more than a compo filler for Assembly 64k compo. :/
added on the 2020-02-26 11:52:58 by branch branch
My theory is, to get a category going there has to be a creative ”big bang” with lots of prods, preferably very low quality and not thought out too much, many different ideas and styles, so people will think ”wow, anything goes, I could do something better”. And this has to continue for many years because it takes a long time for the idea to settle in. It has to be fun to make a prod, and it has to seem doable. If you look at high-profile 64k compos, does it feel fun and easy to start making those? It’s more like, impossible amount of work and little fun. Maybe if it was ”64k one scene” or ”64k anything goes”? So it didn’t feel so dead serious and hard core. I don’t know. It’s ”anything goes” even as it is, but still it took a special one scene compo for people to have the courage to let their wild ideas out without worrying so much. It’s the expectations that kill the creativity. How about a special bonus award for the most interesting crap entry?
added on the 2020-02-26 22:56:17 by yzi yzi
branch: you have at least one unreleased intro sitting on your hard drive, for several years already. Why not release it in the asm 64k compo? Assembly has one of the biggest audiences so why not give people something nice to watch. :) If I make an Yzin Humppatehdas prod, there’ll be at least two entries and you’ll win. Everyone join the challenge, make a 64k that’s worse than Branch’s intro!! If you win, you lose.
added on the 2020-02-26 23:23:51 by yzi yzi
Quote:
branch: you have at least one unreleased intro sitting on your hard drive, for several years already. Why not release it in the asm 64k compo? Assembly has one of the biggest audiences so why not give people something nice to watch. :) If I make an Yzin Humppatehdas prod, there’ll be at least two entries and you’ll win. Everyone join the challenge, make a 64k that’s worse than Branch’s intro!! If you win, you lose.


I really like this attitude! And what yzi said in the former message too, maybe we should somehow lower the threshold to enter to a 64k compo. But how to engage people? Have a 64k making workshop and a compo in scene lounge or something completely different?

I'm fan of 64k compo and other intro compos as well ofc as I make intros too. It's just that if we don't have more than 3 entries for many years, it is maybe a sign we should do something different.
added on the 2020-02-27 19:59:27 by rimina rimina
And thats why there should be a 16k compo!
added on the 2020-02-27 20:51:50 by wysiwtf wysiwtf
Quote:
maybe we should somehow lower the threshold to enter to a 64k compo. But how to engage people? Have a 64k making workshop and a compo in scene lounge..

that's what i was thinking. you can hold a workshop this year, but i don't think it would help with this year's compo. it might help with *next* year's if you're lucky

interesting idea to make it a scene lounge compo though. you could hold a workshop and a make it a demojam.. sort of like the shadertoy compo you just had at winter assembly. 64k is a lot harder than shadertoy though
added on the 2020-02-27 21:02:24 by evilpaul evilpaul
Would some other category work better? Or rather, _why_ would some other category be better. The problem currently with 64k is the expectations. It could be like intro but with less restrictions, but instead people take it as full blown demo with incredibly tight restrictions. Maybe a running-time limit of ... 150 seconds?

I vividly remember two creative big bangs, the first 4k compo at Assembly 1994
and the first 1k compo at Assembly 2012. When 4k started, people didn't know what to expect and what's possible, and it was very exciting to see all the entries in the compo. In the first 1k compo, there had already been a few good 1k examples out there, but still people entered prods with many weird and funny ideas and without sound, and the "anything goes" spirit has continued nicely IMO.

Actually, last year's one scene compo had such a big bang feeling as well. Lots and lots of entries, it was awesome! :)
added on the 2020-02-27 22:56:54 by yzi yzi
Quote:
The problem currently with 64k is the expectations.

As someone who makes 1-2 relatively ambitious 64k's a year, I can certainly speak to this. I don't think 16k/32k is any better in that regard - while ideally they might hit some kind of effort/payoff sweet spot, I think we haven't seen that proven for the 8k category (which ends up being the same/similar 4k tech but maybe more scenes/tech with quite few exceptions) and I suspect the same would be true for 16k/32k.

Quote:
branch: you have at least one unreleased intro sitting on your hard drive, for several years already. Why not release it in the asm 64k compo? Assembly has one of the biggest audiences so why not give people something nice to watch. :) If I make an Yzin Humppatehdas prod, there’ll be at least two entries and you’ll win. Everyone join the challenge, make a 64k that’s worse than Branch’s intro!! If you win, you lose.

Indeed, adjusting attitudes/expectations is probably a good idea. I consistently catch myself thinking "oh no, don't release something shit, it'll hurt your group's reputation" but I think this is largely untrue and folks are happy to see fun stuff regardless of how much effort was actually behind it.
added on the 2020-02-28 16:53:07 by ferris ferris

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