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Use of UE et cetera

category: general [glöplog]
If the rules do not state that one must re-invent the wheel, why re-invent the wheel if whatever you are doing is a sophisticated experience? I couldn't care less, if a live-act built the instruments he is using by himself, if it wasn't presented at a place where "from scratch" is not part of the experience. And unless i am not stating that i did everything on my own and thus withholding credit, or unless i do not declare the work of others as my own and do not obfuscate or alter proof of what i did and how i did it, i see no harm nor deception in that.
[Since i consider myself a "prod creator", i'd like to add: for me personally, those who have no idea about the efforts that go into making something, but who complain the loudest, are not on the list of people i am personally trying to build an experience for, nor will i even consider their criticism of things they know nothing about as valid.]
added on the 2018-08-07 19:50:41 by wertstahl wertstahl
[edit: ..if it _were_ presented at a place where "from scratch" is not part of the experience. ] (So many languages. So little time.)
added on the 2018-08-07 19:53:53 by wertstahl wertstahl
This entire discussion is about a really good demo by a group with good standing and history and they may have forgotten a formality, true.

But we're not upset by 4K etc. competitions being about as interesting as browsing Shadertoy for 20 minutes (hint, hint) or a bunch of fat fucks commenting on a couch because everyone with real responsibilties was either busy or needed to relax.
added on the 2018-08-07 19:59:54 by superplek superplek
Quote:
This entire discussion is about a really good demo by a group with good standing and history and they may have forgotten a formality, true.

But we're not upset by 4K etc. competitions being about as interesting as browsing Shadertoy for 20 minutes (hint, hint) or a bunch of fat fucks commenting on a couch because everyone with real responsibilties was either busy or needed to relax.
This!
added on the 2018-08-07 20:25:35 by introspec introspec
If you want something more interesting than 4K intros, you can watch porn.
I don’t get why people react this way to others trying to make things and show them. Who fucking cares about the tools they’ve used? As long as they state it. Also, people really need to relax about the fact that they “show code that doesn’t belong to them.” Duh? If you take ALL the code required for your demo / intro to actually show up on a big screen, unless you’re targeting an oldschool machine, it’s very likely that you haven’t written 50% out of it (OS abstracting the hardware, drivers, shipped-in .dll on Windows, etc.). I really hate that kind of argument that a “good demoscener” should make all the code. It’s just plain stupid and doesn’t represent reality.

As for the rest of the discussion, I’ve been feeling more and more, for the past two years, distant to the scene, because of that kind of phenomenon. I consider myself still as a beginner in demoscene (I wrote only four productions – two 64k and two demos), and yes, I wrote “all the code”, but having people bragging around and dismissing everyone’s else work because “duh, they use a commercial engine, they should be FIIIREEED”, it just makes me think like “I don’t belong to that scene.”

To me, this whole thing is harmful.
added on the 2018-08-07 22:04:05 by phaazon phaazon
^
Well, I assume that many people have used to think that demos are (largely) about expressing oneself by means of programming. Apparently it may require a big change in one's thinking to come to terms with a current situation. A large amount of friction seems thus inevitable. Something similar happened for instance when Windows arrived with its programming interfaces.
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demos are (largely) about expressing oneself by means of programming

And there's me, thinking the scene is about doing your best with the given tools on the machine.
added on the 2018-08-07 23:50:27 by mog mog
Im a bit embarassed over where the demoscene is headed now...
Not that I care much but I just wanted to mention.

When it becomes a norm to use these tools how many coders will quit the demoscene? I wonder.. Only graphics artist and musicians can produce their own demos.

Why do you listen to 80's and 90's music? Why does some music groups make music nowadays that really sound like 80's and 90's music? Why does some even play the guitar instead of using top notch high end DAWs to produce digital electronic music which have all these guitar samples or generative sounds? If you take away coding, you take away the guitar.

It is not a problem for me that democoders use their own tools to do what they do. I do what I do, so I dont care much about what. But, after I look at the filesize of Dying Stars by Orange I have to reconsider my admiration of this demo. You can burn four of these demos on a non-dual DVD and it has filled up most of the space on that DVD, and that does not impress me much!

Coding is an artform on any platform. Using tools are a shortcut, but will not necessarily make it a good demo.

If one like research; code and mathematics can blend together.. Computing a massive amount of numbers for famous open mathematical problems you can do if you know how to code, but not know if you only use tools for graphics and so on. So knowing how to code can have some benefits wether you like it or not. Important part of demoscene history is about code, not about tools. If this is lost, then demoscene has lost an important tool.
added on the 2018-08-08 00:00:58 by rudi rudi
I still want to know what book it was rudi
added on the 2018-08-08 00:08:56 by superplek superplek
That moment, when you liked your scene better without discussion. This is a statement. And not a poll.
added on the 2018-08-08 00:25:58 by wertstahl wertstahl
Still waiting for Variform 2 redux. Tech is secondary!
added on the 2018-08-08 03:15:50 by T$ T$
Somehow this attitude that "it does not matter how it is done" seems to bypass the whole problematics. Of course it has always mattered "how it is done". That is why there is separated wild compos or animation compos and demo compos. This does not yet imply that non-coder-demos are a problem but that their justification needs to go a bit further.

Another debate from the distant past was this State of Art controversy. Some people blamed it being merely a video. But those days there was this hardware limitations related wow factor to fall on (besides it actually was not merely a video...) The demo had certainly shown something that had not been seen on Amiga before.
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it’s very likely that you haven’t written 50% out of it

Don't you agree there is a difference between 50% and 0% ?
added on the 2018-08-08 06:39:10 by numtek numtek
when I saw "Doom" the first time I was impressed how they did it manage to show such impressive graphics on such slow systems; the game itself was not my cup of tea. Today I play sometimes really great AAA titles, but I'm not impressed by the code, and not even by the graphics, since it's just the try getting more an more realistic - and if it runs to slow on your PC, ask daddy to by a new gfx card for 1000 bucks .. AAA PC demos, done with engines that need to run on up to date PC and gfx cards of the next generation - it may be impressive as art, but not as scene product .. fortunately it's a modern PC demo scene problem, not a demo scene problem at all, since there a dozens of obscure and very limited platforms, where the demo spirit is alive ..
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Don't you agree there is a difference between 50% and 0% ?


You, and the guy who just posted, should show some goddamn humility.
added on the 2018-08-08 07:19:00 by superplek superplek
it's not about humility (says the guy how downvoted byterapers ;) .. I see the hard work, but at Disney's the work hard too .. it's about the question is it a still a "demo" or just excellent visual art ..
Demoscene is defined by whatever gets submitted. The type of people and content the scene attracts is what defines the scene, regardless of opinions.

Our first few demos were made with Unity. If you're not gonna show off some new graphics tech why write your own shitty openGL engine and make the entry bar 10x higher?

Make demos! Realtime is a constraint, doing something cool in limited spare time is a constraint. Make art because you want to, cool if people like it, sucks if people are sour about it. But in the end its your art, your time!
I didn't downvote Byterapers, I love Byterapers. So I hate to see them fail and to make it worse massively upvoting their own failure.

And to whom it concerns: I've mad demos since 1996 and I'm making one now for Deadline in Berlin and I've figured out how to win the quarterfinals of the Shader HW GP 2019. I'm no armchair motherfucker.

Good morning y'all.
added on the 2018-08-08 08:43:55 by superplek superplek
/s/mad/made
added on the 2018-08-08 08:44:29 by superplek superplek
And you know what angered me mr. mechanist? That voxel landscape did NOT look good, not by a long shot, certainly not for a P133. So collectively applauding that holocaust of an effect isn't helping anyone. And yes I did likewise effects on the same hardware, I posted a link.
added on the 2018-08-08 08:47:17 by superplek superplek
We'll see if the next one is better? ;)
added on the 2018-08-08 09:27:18 by leGend leGend
Quote:
when I saw "Doom" the first time I was impressed how they did it manage to show such impressive graphics on such slow systems; the game itself was not my cup of tea. Today I play sometimes really great AAA titles, but I'm not impressed by the code, and not even by the graphics, since it's just the try getting more an more realistic - and if it runs to slow on your PC, ask daddy to by a new gfx card for 1000 bucks .. AAA PC demos, done with engines that need to run on up to date PC and gfx cards of the next generation - it may be impressive as art, but not as scene product .. fortunately it's a modern PC demo scene problem, not a demo scene problem at all, since there a dozens of obscure and very limited platforms, where the demo spirit is alive ..

BB Image
added on the 2018-08-08 10:29:44 by Gargaj Gargaj
anyone who thinks coding modern PC demos is "easy" because "hardware is unlimited and you can do anything you want" so they aren't impressed with the code - go code up the effects in e.g. Wander for me and prove it.. :)

the hardware moves on but so do the goals and demands placed on it - often faster than the hardware itself. doing something really modern and cutting edge is far, far more difficult now than in the old days - there's far more material to learn and code to write to get there.
added on the 2018-08-08 11:11:40 by smash smash
Even that I hate Smash "I'm better than you" attitude, he has a good point here.
We should essentially learn as an audience how to judge UE/Unity demos nd how to recognize value in it.

My kind of approach was like this anyway - whenever I see that stuff is in UE, I automatically have bigger expectations from it.

Of course, you are not forced too label anything, as all we do is pro publico bono here. But it just a nice touch towards the audience. You essentially show you respect your viewers and don't want to trick them. And apart from labelling a demo, it would be nice if authors will provide some sort of 'making of' in the nfo with a description what was done using standard assets/code and which effect/shader was coded entirely from scratch. It's actually what many people often write in their 4k/8k/64k nfos as a matter of pride of inventing new technique/shader. I wouldn't force anyone, again, but this factors would definitely affect my 'thumbing up' strategy.
added on the 2018-08-08 11:43:01 by tomkh tomkh

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