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Releasing demo assets into other compos as wel

category: general [glöplog]
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by netpoet:
TL;DR: How is this really a discussion.
Sanity arrived! ;)
I am happy that you guys actually started talking about that :)

I agree that modyfing rules and banning won't work on a party like Revision.
Maybe some other, small party.
But my intention was not exactly banning (well, maybe in that particular moment while writing that first post in anger), but to simply get your attention to the issue that bothered me more and more over the years. I am glad I did this. Maybe one or other scener will now thing twice before doing it again.

Funny thought, I think that during my 10 years of attending demoparties, I spotted this kind of practice only at Revision. I wonder if this is somehow associated with quite remarkable money prizes...
added on the 2016-03-29 13:23:41 by AceMan AceMan
Eh, I think the money is incidental. There's probably some who enter hoping for the chance at that, but if it was all about the money many parties wouldn't see entries at all. Plus there's easier opportunities to make some dough than to wait a year for Revision.
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I also think that the lack of this happening so regularly is a sign that there is already a stigma attached to doing it and the longer this conversation goes on the more people will feel awkward about doing so.

But the rules shouldn't change as in some cases (gasmans example for instance) a spontaneous addition at a smaller party is worth it.

I'm with h0f on both accounts -- also because as lug00ber pointed out the practical implications of enforcing any kind of rule would be a big hassle. Even though this:

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If you want to disqualify something (assuming a rule is in place that an entry can not be released earlier) it will have to be the demo. Is that something we really want?

...would make quite a strong incentive to not pull this kind of stunt, wouldn't it? ;)
added on the 2016-03-29 13:35:21 by dojoe dojoe
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In these times of diminishing scene activity we surely need more constraints for compo participation.


Considering the fact that there's still preselection on most competitions, I wouldn't start talking about "diminishing scene activity"
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In these times of diminishing scene activity

Even if this _were_ a valid argument for or against fairness, which I think it is not, I completely disagree with the a priori of "diminishing scene activity".

There are new parties popping up left right and center, with Graffathon being a pure newbie party, and the Revision compos this year showed that there are quite a few very strong newcomers around.Not to mention all the old sceners who apparently got bored just raising kids and are making oldskool productions again ;)
added on the 2016-03-29 13:44:08 by dojoe dojoe
@AceMan: Funny thought, I think that during my 10 years of attending demoparties, I spotted this kind of practice only at Revision. I wonder if this is somehow associated with quite remarkable money prizes...

Don't you remember Load Error party in Gdansk and your Amiga demo? :) (I mean the fullscreen gfx here).

... but I really have nothing against it :).
added on the 2016-03-29 13:53:58 by slayer slayer
Wouldn't call that demo mine. I just did a .MOD for Carrion since he asked.
I remember now, it indeed happened with Carrion's gfx.
added on the 2016-03-29 14:06:58 by AceMan AceMan
My favourite, historically, must be from The Gathering 96 where top-3 gfx entries are from Tint, the winning Amiga demo.
added on the 2016-03-29 14:16:19 by malmix malmix
If I want my music heard, I put it in a demo.
added on the 2016-03-29 14:33:53 by gloom gloom
what Gloom said!
added on the 2016-03-29 14:51:23 by farfar farfar
it's rather ambiguous anyway... what if our musician released a fucking awesome track in 2005 at Breakpoint in the streaming music compo but we finally have a clear concept and right time to design a demo around its music style in 2016?
Again, it's the other way around. The disucssion is about reusing demo assets in other compos, not reusing existing assets in demos. ;)
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If I want my music heard, I put it in a demo.

Afraid of not passing preselection? ;)
added on the 2016-03-29 15:01:35 by Gargaj Gargaj
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it's rather ambiguous anyway... what if our musician released a fucking awesome track in 2005 at Breakpoint in the streaming music compo but we finally have a clear concept and right time to design a demo around its music style in 2016?


I'm actually guilty of that! Was the first year the GEMA thing really kicked off and cocoon had an issue with their musician. I let them use my tracked music entry from the previous year in their demo. It helped them get out of a tight spot and get their demo out. If the time constraints at the time had be different I'd have made them a brand new track.
added on the 2016-03-29 15:54:47 by djh0ffman djh0ffman
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I'm actually guilty of that! Was the first year the GEMA thing really kicked off and cocoon had an issue with their musician. I let them use my tracked music entry from the previous year in their demo. It helped them get out of a tight spot and get their demo out. If the time constraints at the time had be different I'd have made them a brand new track.


Me, kind of, too :)
Last year Appendix amiga 64k intro used my AHX from 2008 breakpoint oldschool exe.
I tried to convince Madbart to let me write something exclusively, but he insisted on using that one. Wasn't uber happy about that, but hey, someone actually wanted to use my music in a AAA scene prod ;___;
added on the 2016-03-29 16:18:07 by AceMan AceMan
djh0ffman, see my reply to Maali :)
And I was thoroughly impressed how well this 4chn track worked in a high-end demo.
Thanks AceMan, I was trying to find that tune for a while! I suspected it was one of yours.
I remember being kind of disappointed of the demo to have a known track. But I still liked both the demo and the track.
added on the 2016-03-29 16:28:39 by madpew madpew
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Quote:
If I want my music heard, I put it in a demo.

Afraid of not passing preselection? ;)


Sure, but that's not why, it's more that the sad truth is that most people couldn't care less about the music compos at parties :)
added on the 2016-03-29 17:35:37 by gloom gloom
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I completely disagree with the a priori of "diminishing scene activity"


Then what is this? http://blog.subsquare.com/state-of-the-demoscene-1991-2014/
added on the 2016-03-29 18:02:54 by Marq Marq
If you've made an awesome tune or picture that's going to be used in a demo, and you think the tune or picture works stand-alone, and is actually so good that it might do well in the music or graphics compo, then NOT submitting it to the separate compo would be disrespectful towards the compos and the organizers and the audience. If it makes the compo better, do it. It's the jury's responsibility to filter out bad stuff.

I feel completely the other way around as those who think that seeing or hearing something twice is awful. At least what comes to music, familiar = good, and so it makes total sense to have the same stuff played first in a music compo... Feel free to disagree. Actually this whole issue came as a surprise, I thought that self-evidently, the scene is about doing cool tricks and stunts, and managing to create a tune or picture that wins their dedicated compo, and is also a part of a winning demo, would be the ultimate achievement.

Leijaa: I was trying to say that the times of getting too many entries in a compo are gone. I'd like them to come back. 2002 was a long time ago. The only recent exception I can think of is maybe the photo compo at Revision 2012 or 2013, and even that was just fun.

By the way. On Assembly 2013, I committed double-entry. I made a fast music compo entry from scratch in an hour or so, and after submitting I realized that there's still almost an hour left before the listening music compo submission deadline. I didn't have an entry for the listening music compo, so I thought why not work on the fast music entry as much as I can, and try and make it to the listening compo. And guess what, it made it through! I don't feel too much guilt or shame for this. If I dropped someone's song from the compo, with basically a joke entry I made from scratch in two hours, then umm... Tough luck. Sometimes I've spent a long time working on an entry, just to be disqualified.
added on the 2016-03-29 18:28:12 by yzi yzi
Quote:
Quote:
I completely disagree with the a priori of "diminishing scene activity"


Then what is this? http://blog.subsquare.com/state-of-the-demoscene-1991-2014/

Do you mean the part where he concludes "Overall, demoscene output has indeed stabilized, which is nice. The large decline we’ve seen starting at the beginning of this decade has stopped." or the part where the number of demos is rising again?

Given the number of newbies I see at demoparties, the number of new demoparties, and the overall quality level at this year's revision, I do not share your pessimistic outlook.
added on the 2016-03-29 18:43:54 by dojoe dojoe
Also, I feel that submitting a modified / developed / tailored variant of something to another compo is fine as long as it's far enough off the original entry. See Nyan Pig at this year's revision which was a modified variant of the money pig in Thanktro, or yzi's .newandimproved fast tracking entry in the streaming music compo. That's both fine by my personal standards. Just a "compo cut" of your demo track wouldn't be.

The line is highly subjective of course -- one more reason to not try to make a rule about it.
added on the 2016-03-29 18:50:12 by dojoe dojoe
yzi: I remember this incident from 2013, I was the listening music orga and I had the fast orga in my jury. We discussed about it but decided to let it be, since no rules were broken and the entry itself passed presel.

Sometimes we get fastmusic entries to listening and/or dance, but they usually get preselected out as they usually pale against the more robust entries that have been worked on for a greater period of time.

This year I really noticed how much demomusic goes to musiccompos, but this always happens. I've done it myself, so not gonna put myself on a pedastal in anyway. I dont see this as a problem, except in the way that when democompo starts, I get to listen to the track for the Nth time, whereas normal visitor only the 2nd time
added on the 2016-03-29 19:00:27 by T-101 T-101
wow there are people who seriously think throwing gfx and tunes from demos into other compos at the same party isnt a traditional thing to do?

YOU should be banned instead. pff
added on the 2016-03-29 19:20:27 by groepaz groepaz

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