pouët.net

christ that is.
a
lso, actual youtube is a nicely working site dedicated to playing the video at hand *and* it suggests related work in the sidebar, something that actually makes me watch some more/other stuff while i'm at it.

Which is exactly what Gargaj has been doing as well, but as you can see from his example -- there comes a point when "fixing" is no longer a possibility; where the only possible outcome is catastrophic failiure.. and that's what he wants to avoid.

Also, professionally, "just fix bux and refactor as long as you can" is a really disasterous approach :)

The thing I really like about demoscene coding is the freedom to work on whatever interesting problems I like, and spend as much time as I like writing code I can be truly proud of, without worrying about whether I'd be maximising shareholder value better by doing tedious maintenance work instead.

Are you hiring Gargaj at a competitive industry rate to deliver new Pouet features on a specific timescale and budget? STFU then.

I think he could just slowly fix everything, but in the end it's going to be just as much or (probably) even more work than a fresh rewrite.

And I prefer a link to an embedded player, takes up less screenspace and loads faster.

gasman: Woah, WTF? Whatever did I say to deserve that reaction?

All I'm saying is that if Gargaj (who actually knows the Pouet codebase, perhaps better than anyone (and that's saying something indeed)) tells everyone that the best thing to do is to actually rewrite it, then perhaps that's actually a voice of reason, compared to random people who has never touched it saying "Nah, just keep on bugfixing, it's all good!"

You're a developer as well, and should recognize the situation of building something on top of something else, and doing this while having a sense of where you want to take it in the future, not just "keeping up with the past".

Also: chill the fuck out will you?

I knew I was asking for trouble with that STFU comment... Sorry Gloom, that wasn't directed at you, it was directed at the people offering 'advice' about what Gargaj should be doing with his time.

Gloom should take lesions from Adok and Magic on how NOT to get agitated all the damn time. His blood pressure must be going through the roof. =)

gasman: Sorry, my bad :) It just seemed to be directed at me since you wrote "you" just underneath my post. :)

tomaes: While I won't take any sort of lesson from either Adok or Magic, I see your point ;)

You don't. The lazy fucks will just have one less click to get their video fix, the rest of us will have 1 less click when we need the video for whatever reason.

And speaking of lazy fucks, maybe it's not so simple as that:

- It's unrealistic to expect somebody getting their first look at the scene to start installing DX updates, ignore big flashing warnings that say "THIS IS A VIRUS", then watch something at 2fps on their intel GPU. Let them get a decent experience on youtube, then try things realtime if they want to look a bit deeper.

- If they're going off to youtube, they'll likely click on other stuff while they're there and end up watching kitten videos. Keeping them on pouet could save them from long term brain damage ;)

- It's not just the lazy and mac-stranded. I don't have a PC, but I also don't have a c64, amstrad, GBA and almost every other platform ever made. I *could* download emulators and learn how to load a program on each of those platforms, but to be honest I'm not that interested in them. I would like to see the best demos on those platforms though. Should I waste lots of time for an inferior emulator experience, or watch a high quality video from real hardware?

"Should I waste lots of time for an inferior emulator experience, or watch a high quality video from real hardware that's been mashed to a shit quality video in youtube?"

--> FIXED

(Disclaimer: just because I express to be hesitant about the idea doesn't mean I won't add it, but I think it's healthier to have a soapbox debate about it to work out details.)

See the thing is, the reason the embedded video feels like a step over the wrong line is that it gives the wrong impression. (I think.) It feels like it's devaluing Pouet to the level of a video-sharing site - I know this may sound like a loooong stretch but let me try to explain it: When you visit a Pouet prod page, the focus is on the prod as an entity, and if you embed the video itself (i.e. what is essentially a representation of the entire prod), that for me looks like that there's all to it, the prod _is_ a video. The download link itself is almost irrelevant, newcomers will just think it just downloads the video. (Yes it does say "Windows" or "Mac", but then MP3 stores also say their music works on the iPod - we're not exactly living in the age of technically sound definitions.)

Youtube for me, while certainly a saccharine, at least has an obvious visual feedback that what you're watching is a "draft" version. Even if I'd be watching something shot on camera, I knew the "Youtube" version would be just a snapshot because I'm watching on Youtube, the McDonalds of videosharing. If we actually embed Youtube into the Pouet prod page, that just gives me the feeling that we're actively promoting our representation of a demo as a (fairly low-quality) video. (And no I don't think Capped/Vimeo would help that case either - the problem isn't really with the logo in the corner of the video.)

I guess my rather hazy point is the incentive and impression of the whole thing.

I understand and (somewhat) share that sentiment. Making pouet a mere extension of youtube feels wrong, although not entirely unreasonable.

But really, how many "newcomers" (that could potentially get the wrong idea) are there that come here to look for demo stuff. It's mostly old farts, who like to catalog and comment on things they already know.

Smash: fucked either way, unless you have the hardware.

Gargaj: yeah, I totally get that. How about this: stick with the current screenshot, but add a youtube-style play button in the middle. Clicking it pops up a little dialog asking if you want to view the original demo or watch a video recording. 'Original' starts up a download, 'video' fires up the embedded video player.

I don't think that's quite right and it'd need some extra work, but it has some benefits. People without the right hardware (or are lazy) get the embedded video, everyone gets pointed at the exe first.

Alternatively, make the current download/youtube etc. links more prominent - actually this should happen anyway, if the emphasis is on the demo. :) Have the youtube etc. links fire up an embedded player so it's not necessary to leave the site.

Before we touch external video players, I'd rather tackle the self-evident prod page problems. F.e., the popularity bar is completely useless 99% of the time (not to mention redundant) and should go / or could be replaced with a vote distribution bar.

I soooo much agree with psonice post at 14:46:53!

(but I rather disagree with the last one: if I'm going to get a dialog box here, I prefer to go on anni's channel directly ;) ).

(disclaimer: i'm just tossing out ideas, not telling people what should be done.)

gargaj: i do see your point, and it's a good point.

i think psonice's suggestion is a bit too patronizing - people who DO know what they want should be able to do what they want, and that would mean an extra click for the download too :) plus i think it'd be confusing for the user. you'd want to be able to predict what happens when you click on a link.

you could have tabs or something, and initially have the embedded player hidden in another tab, and make the actual download link a big green button or something so it catches the user's eye when they first stumble upon the page, therefore maintaining the concept of a production as something else than a youtube video, while still allowing them to easily view the youtube video if they so please :)

("but then you might just as well have a text link to youtube", i hear you say - yeah, but this way the user experience is more solid; having an embedded player doesn't instantly rocket you away from the site you were at before you clicked the external link. plus this way you could have your own related links, which in turn lead to other prod pages, where again the actual download is presented as the primary option, instead of losing the user surfing around youtube :)

oh, and tomaes' point about the popularity bar reminds me - does anyone else think the "increase the popularity of this prod by spreading this URL" box is silly and unnecessary? :)

reed: it'll be upgraded the usual web2.0 like/tweet/ohmyfuck tripe.

as far as video embedding goes, yeah, obviously it'd be something that needs to be triggered by the user, but even then i think it's... weird, having videos play ON pouet.

If there's a risk of losing the user surfing on youtube, then there's a risk of the user not understanding what is a demo is and thinking it is a video, as far as I can see.

If popup windows didn't suck, I'd posit them as a solution, but opening the link in a new tab seems workable to me . . . . The problem is how to model the experience of the typical outreach user vs person used to using Pouet. It has value for those purposes as a public archive which is not just a filesystem . . .

I have had to explain that a demo is an executable program ad nauseam, and not just because our secondary outreach machine is my ancient and terrible Macbook Crap aka InDesign dongle.

re

"reed: it'll be upgraded the usual web2.0 like/tweet/ohmyfuck tripe."

Why?

because that's the de-facto standard for sharing nowadays.

oh god please not a facebook button on pouet?!?

[sorry, I don't want to reopen that. ignore what I just said. *facepalm*
I'll just mentally paint it pink and put it in a S.E.P.F. ]

reed: i mostly agree with you there. It's the wrong way to do it - maybe right direction, wrong road.

Gargaj: No. 1 reason to have the embedded player: Like it or not, tons of people *do* watch the video rather than download the demo. It's better to keep them on pouet for their voting, commenting, and looking for more stuff to watch than sending them off to youtube because then they're more likely to try an exe or get involved.

If you accept it as a necessary evil, the question is how to do it while making the exe first choice still. As it is, the download link and youtube link are given near equal weight, so this can actually improve :)

I quite like that suggestion of reed's. Put tabs on the screenshot area. The default tab is the screenshot, and if videos are available add one tab for each (because making youtube the default when we have some good demo-specific video sites would be an own-goal).

Make the download link a prominent button, so you initially get the same view as now, but with more emphasis on the download. Underneath that, add buttons for the other stuff - soundtrack, source, whatever, then under that add smaller/less prominent video buttons. Hitting a video button would switch the screenshot to the video player.

To me, that concept is starting to look 'right'. More emphasis on the realtime version, easier access to the video if we want it, and people stay on the site more.