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Moleman Digipak

category: general [glöplog]
One thing I've been wondering is that why didn't you organize this project with the Mindcandy people? They seemed to be able to do it without any crowdsourcing for budget whatsoever.
added on the 2013-04-25 15:04:02 by visy visy
I suspect it is a matter of whether one can float a heavy upfront investment.

And in fact, the Mindcandy folks did a promo email for this campaign. So yay.
As for us Mindcandy people we will try to help out the project in anyway we can minus a big cash infusion. The Moleman budget is much bigger than we could fund, our limit was around $10-15k for MC3 and we met that with MC1 and MC2 funds. We could produce MC1 because we put up $5k (or thereabouts) up front--much less for single DVD. The biggest problem we are finding at this time is very little interest in the demo media products. We pressed 2,500 MC3 and still have around 800 left to sell with very little interest. I suppose we have exhausted the scene and need to reach a new audience. This Moleman project will have most/all product accounted for if fully funded and that is a big plus over what we had to do with MC1-MC3. Szilard is finding that out now with < $4k funded--where are the people?
What Dan said.. we put several thousand $ of our own money into MC1 with the assumption we'd get it back, and we did, which in turn made MC2 and MC3 possible. But our success came from making a DVD in the pre-Youtube era, and the novelty at the time being enough for a Slashdotting. :) I couldn't tell you if the audience was bigger in 2002-03 than it is today. I don't think you can get $28k from a mostly-demoscene audience up front. That kind of money needs some kind of art grant or business loan. How many are you planning to sell?
added on the 2013-04-25 18:36:22 by phoenix phoenix
IMO the only problem with this campaing is that physical based media is dead. I have no working DVD / Bluray players, so I have no interest in buying it just to gather dust on a shelf. I barely touched mindcandy 3, I've seen it twice at most.
added on the 2013-04-25 19:21:13 by xernobyl xernobyl
The nice things about physical media
*nice memento ( :
*better image quality
*files don't get corrupted
*software codec issues less likely, I suspect

(vs streaming)
*not waiting for loading times every time
*having it around when you don't have a web connections

Indie film folks would be all over this. And heck, I'd be happy to help write an arts grant (within the States at least, as I'm taking classes on that; the administrative structures are different in Europe and usually state run vs private, which is difficult), but the first thing that comes up is prospecting, in other words finding an arts grant that would fund a small indie film . . .
*files don't get corrupted

Bit rot.
BB Image
added on the 2013-04-25 20:57:58 by kusma kusma
The only reason for me (and many other people) would be:
nice memento ( :

Rest is... bogus :)
added on the 2013-04-25 21:05:11 by Tomoya Tomoya
What about the satisfaction of supporting something you believe in, if you can?

Of having the chance to spread that something to people who might ignore it, lost in the noise of the internet?

People take a physical object more seriously, sometimes.

Outside the scene, in the wilds of the internet, free culture can so easily become disposable culture.
The again, so can culture you pay for, empty consumer crap with nothing to communicate.

And I'm saying this as someone who loves books but mostly reads ebooks because I don't want to accumulate STUFF, but would buy a hardcopy of something meaningful enough to me.
I *still* haven't been able to see the Blu-ray of MC3 (which I own). I don't know anyone with a blu-ray player (maybe some PS3 owners, but none that personal to borrow one).

Personally, I don't want any DVD's or Blu-ray's... I'd be more than happy to pay a fair price for a digital, hi-res download (that is: paying for the making of the documentary, not for the physical media)... paying extra for a physical copy is just against my religion these days.
added on the 2013-04-26 08:57:18 by Jcl Jcl

Related to MindCandy questions. The guys are helping us continuously. A really-really BIG Thanks to them! But as they wrote, to bypass crowdfunding you need a 'few' bucks in your pocket.
And even if I had that money, I won't produce 1000 copies without needs assessment. Which means, first I want to know if there are any people who will buy it. Why? The answer is in this forum's posts. I also think that nowadays people don't buy too much physical media. (I do, but maybe I'm the last one of those. If I really love a film I have to have an official hard-copy of that.)
So needs assessment: How will you know, if people say they will buy your product, that they really will buy it after you spent all your money on producing it? You can be sure only in one case. You ask them to pay for it in advance. And hey, this is crowdfunding!

It's so easy. People asked us if there are DVD or Blu-Ray copies of the film. We said no, we don't want to spend money for that. But after a few questions we thought if people really want to get one, why not try a crowdfunding campaign. Than we will see the real needs for that. The film is on the net for free, so we thought we not only put the film itself on a disk but make some extras for this edition. This is how we started the campaign. If there are no needs for it, than nothing happened, but we tried to make it for the people who would like to have one.

The only question is: can we reach all the people who want to get a copy?
And this is why we continuously try to inform everyone about it until the end of the campaign.

And if someone doesn't need a copy, they have to do nothing:) We won't be angry if there aren't enough needs, it's just an experiment for us.
added on the 2013-04-26 10:34:38 by lameron lameron
lameron, however, I would see success of a crowdfunding (of a much smaller amount) for those extras you mention, with digital download.

Not sure how much of the target goal goes to the actual print and press of physical stuff (dvd's, blu-rays, boxes, etc.), but I'm guessing a lot of it.

I'd surely contribute to a smaller crowdfunding to get those extras, so you can get some money to covert he expenses of making another quality documentary.
added on the 2013-04-26 10:51:46 by Jcl Jcl
Screw the DVD... Publish a classy coffee-table book of the demoscene - photos/interviews with sceners, writeups of parties, some insight into the code, graphics and music. Have the videos on a couple of 16GB flash drives embedded into the cover that can be copied to computer or played on pretty much any TV bought in the last year or three.

That I would buy.
added on the 2013-04-26 11:09:26 by bloodnok bloodnok
Well; I disagree. Like with old computers - old media can also be cozy to have on the shelf to be picked out once in a while. Not talking about the mainstream music or movies, but a collectable like this is a must-have for me :)
added on the 2013-04-26 12:06:44 by response response
Jcl, bloodnok: I totally agree to that, but:

This campaign is not because we want to get some money for our documentary or for the extras. If this campaign will reach its goal, I have to spend my money to produce a lot of free copies for the people who helped us making the film and for the authors of the works we used in the film. (Because I never will be able to pay for those, so I would like to give them a free copy as a thank you.) It's not about to find a way we can get some money. It's about to try to fulfill a need if it exist. (And yeah, I would be very happy if my film had such an edition.)

So I never will ask money only for content from the people regarding this film. (Because selling a film which contains a huge amount of works of other people is just not fair. And find out the percent their works worth in the film is also impossible. All these things are true only regarding Moleman 2.)

In this campaign we don't ask for money for the content, but for the cost of the print and press of physical stuff (plus platform fees, etc.)

Maybe if we have time we will publish those extras online for free. As we did it with the film.

And if someone wants to support our new plans for making new films, there is a donation button next to the download button. And then the people don't pay us for the actual content but for making new ones.

But all the things you wrote are true and can work, but not in case of Moleman 2.
added on the 2013-04-26 12:15:16 by lameron lameron
Making a production like this is like making a party.
The costs are invisible to the folks who don't know how it is done, and so it is worth explaining.
(I speak from experience, but also from taking classes in financial management for nonprofits).

With a production like a DVD digipak, the vendors producers like Lameron work with have breakeven points (cf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Break-even_%28economics%29) at certain production volumes where the cost of production goes down because it is divided between more produced units -- from printing, to cost of materials, of maintenance for machinery, payroll for adminstrators and line workers, utilities, etc.

The independent producer working for love not money cannot work outside of this production marketplace; breakeven points always come into it.

With a party, locations generally cost money, usually starting with a down payment for the venue in the hundreds or thousands of currency units. If the venue is free, there are still reams of paperwork and many signatures to obtain, as well as negotiating with a school, business, city, or multiple of these at once. There are the costs of badges/tickets/wristbands, prizes (even if you make cookies, ingredients cost money), posters and other publicity, trash bags, sometimes food, webhosting, domain registration, payment processing fees, sometimes online ticketing service fees, web hosting, permits, gear, transportation of gear, and of course if any organizers are contractors or otherwise don't have paid vacation, they lose money for time off work.

The reality is that bartering and connections will only get you so far. In the end, we presently live in a market context where currency is needed to accomplish things. This is why development officers are so important for nonprofits.

The extras are to get folks interested, but this is really about having the money up front to pay a printer of DVDs and creator of digipaks for a large shipment to make it worth their while.

The same market economics apply to DVDs as to anything else, and even if you want to produce one not for profit as Lameron is doing, you still need to step up to the table with money to hand the vendors, and the fewer you order, the more money you have to hand over to start with.

I was not suggesting (and I tried to express it correctly in the last sentence) that you wanted to make money... making a film like this has expenses, and an incentive for making a new one, would be having those expenses covered.

I (but then, that's my oppinion and just mine) just do not see the point of raising such a big crowdfunding (I'd say $28k is big for a hobby project, but that's me again) where the majority of the money will go to producing a physical media which not many (again: my point of view, not the absolute truth) people is interested in.

And you can see the example of MindCandy 3 there. When 1 and 2 were produced, things with physical media were different... now, there are still copies left and many people hasn't even seen (or have seen once and forgot) the specific content of the disc due to a lack of a proper physical player. I personally was hoping MC3 would offer a digital download to owners at some point, but they hasn't.

Again, I can see the point of making a completely different crowdfunding (call it "donation", if you want... in the end, crowdfunding is just a hipster term of what has been known as "donation-funded" for ages), so you can make a new one, even better documentary in the future.

Funds could be used, for example, to pay for party tickets, travel, etc., for all those parties you didn't plan to go before, but can now because of this, and it'd make a better and broader documentary in the future which included more parties, more people, etc. It could also pay the beers for interviewed people, and such.

I mean, it could serve for *practical* things, and not for a physical copy which is just totally unneeded (again, IMHO), and you'd probably do with much less funding than $28k.
added on the 2013-04-26 14:07:54 by Jcl Jcl

We are absolutely planning campaigns for new projects the same way you explain.
But it doesn't mean we couldn't try this one with the Digipak. As I said, I never though it’s worth investing money in such thing, therefore we started this campaign. If there are no needs for that than it's ok. We will run other campaigns to fund new projects regardless this one. This just serves not that goal. About the 28k, I've explained that before why we need that amount of money. You can find that in the Q&A of the campaign. But for short answer: If we would like to produce only 100 copies it would cost a fortune per copy.

So I totally understand you, but in this case the question is not about how to get donation but whether there is any need for this digipak. And that's all. Later we will ask for donations for the reasons you mentioned.

So I really appreciate every advice, but we started this campaign for exactly that reason what it means now, and not for other reasons like funding new projects.
added on the 2013-04-26 14:32:02 by lameron lameron
i started to work on the swedish translation today think iam 10-15% done but work is on its way
Making a production like this is like making a party.

rest of the rant omitted. no it's not:
1) a party budget usually reflects in everything you experience at a party
2) usually parties don't have prepaying/crowdsourcing
i can continue, but why would i :D
added on the 2013-04-26 23:10:39 by Maali Maali
1) No it doesn't. But I can argue with you later with the @party budget in hand if you want.
Because attendees sure as hell don't see rekeying the room for a single weekend, for example

2) @party 2010 had crowdsourcing. And ticket sales help us cover some of our costs, although increasingly we are able to shift some of this to sponsorships.

I can continue too, but I have a party to work on ; D

la vache qui rit

yes @party this, @party that. lemme add "dont forget to come to outline!!!" then.

1) i doubt the @party budget comes even near the 28k scheduled for this DVD thing. if it does, then indeed it's interesting to see where all the money goes cos the pictures i've seen from it don't reflect anything more than a 2k-3k party budget. so don't talk as if you know how to deal with those kind of budgets. you're a tenfold off.
2) i said "usually". and we're not organizing parties here, we're discussing crowdfunding a dvd. but hence i already said 'no it's not.' :)

im sure you'll manage to craft a reply with more mentions of @party in it, looking forward to it already! :)
added on the 2013-04-27 21:03:02 by Maali Maali
Dude, this is not worth getting so pissy about. Relax.
Physical media is dead. Attachment to real world possessions leads to fear.
Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.

I would support the moleman digipak if it came in online form. I am not going to buy the box set unless I can exchange scenepoints for moleman dollars.


Don't forget to come to @party


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