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breaking news: 64k category killed, dancers happy

category: parties [glöplog]
I really honestly don't think what's the deal with this. Asm does what it wants to do, it doesn't mean you have to quit doing 64kB intros.

It's the category that is the closest to my heart and if I had a windows machine, the one for which I would still download productions. And I wouldn't need them to come from Assembly to do so. Especially Assembly which is a notable, big party, but one from which it is hard for me to find demos I like.

I've made and released two simple 64kb intros in the past, and making them was really enjoyable precisely because it was the perfect constrained but not TOO constrained environment to explore two little concepts.

Now a lot of people moved to 4k. Maybe thanks to the outstanding work behind Crinkler? I'm not sure. However I do know that for 64kb I was clad to have Kkrunchy around. And these great tools allow people to participate in those categories in a much easier way.

So now we have 4kb for coders, demos for groups, and 64kb stands a bit in between. It's a valuable soft spot where you can still play samples (upsampled crudely or not) or synthesize music, have bitmaps or texture generator and possibly a bit more fair to platforms that don't have Crinkler around.

added on the 2012-05-22 09:57:43 by _-_-__ _-_-__
And please excuse the horrible typos :)
added on the 2012-05-22 09:58:33 by _-_-__ _-_-__
I'm actually thinking the same as you... toward the fact it's ASM orgas matter and choice.

Plus, I still don't see why a 64kb couldn't be entered in the demo competition _at all_. The argument that it's unfair is lame, most sceners know what to do with their votes and it's their own business. I thought it was just anout "making and sharing" (/little girl) so that's what I implied when I said people should submit 64kb intros as demos.

So, maybe the problem is elsewhere, like, submitting for winning... for being able to say "I won a compo at ASM"... (that, I admit, would be a cool thing to say indeed but come on, people aren't like that, aren't they?)

ps: I know, I never coded any demos, I should just shut the fuck up but hey, can't help, need to add my cents. I also want to see more 64kb, I love 64kb... well, not the ones I'm seeing for some years but hey, my tastes.
added on the 2012-05-22 10:21:42 by __ __
"For this year's The Runner event, we decided to remove the 110m hurdle competition, as there weren't enough candidates and this category is virtually dead."

"Ah come on, stop whining, just enter the 100m competition."

The 64k competition is a size limited one, it has a dimension the demo competition has not. It's not only about fairness: they simply are different.
added on the 2012-05-22 10:35:52 by Zavie Zavie
Ok so I assume people who enter combined demo compos didn't get the point of it all...

Is there a place on earth, a scene on earth, where people don't only think about the competition, especially when the competition is dealt with votes and thumbs (and so, like a good old democratic vote, by the averages - I mean numbers, not people).

So, Zavie, if I read you well, it's all a competition, like a race, am I right ? It's not like you dislike running, you like running, but you only run to win, right? You're that serious then.
added on the 2012-05-22 10:45:50 by __ __
Quote:
So, Zavie, if I read you well, it's all a competition, like a race, am I right ? It's not like you dislike running, you like running, but you only run to win, right? You're that serious then.


°__°;

demoscene is totally a competition, it's the ROOTS of the movement, it's in his genes, it's completely, totally based on COMPETITION between groups.

of course, there's room for fun prods (i did some) or for people who doesn't want to compete, everybody is free to do what he wants but the main goal of the demoscene is to COMPETE.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demoscene:
Quote:
The demoscene is a largely competition-oriented subculture, with groups and individual artists competing against each other in technical and artistic excellence. In the early days, this competition came in the form of setting records, like the number of "bobs" (blitter objects) on the screen per frame, or the number of DYCP (different Y Character position) scrollers on a C64. These days, there are organized competitions, or compos, held at demoparties, {...}
added on the 2012-05-22 10:56:40 by rez rez
How about submitting all the 64ks into another size-limited compo like the 4k compo?
*cue trollface.png*
That's funny how citing wikipedia can be a bad and a good thing at the same time.

But seriously, the main issue may be that you deeply wanted to compete at ASM, because it's ASM... but you know, you can enter evoke and I'll be there, probably voting for your prod if it's as good as the last one (yes, I could also be a normal person and don't vote for your prod, just for the terrible comment you made about the fact I never made demos or intros, but as it's a competiton, I indeed try to vote for the production that pleased me the most)
added on the 2012-05-22 11:08:36 by __ __
(saga: I see what you did there)
added on the 2012-05-22 11:08:48 by __ __
@knl: what language do I need to use so you get the point? What exactly don't you understand when I say "they are different"?

Suppose you have a Renaissance paintings exhibition, you go there, and you're told the exhibition is over, but there is a art nouveau exhibition next door. Ok it's interesting and all, and maybe you like art nouveau too, but if what you're interested in is Renaissance, that doesn't help.


Bah I give up anyway, none of this will stop me from having fun with 64k, and after all I don't care about people who don't understand what the point of it is. I'm just sad there are such people within the demoscene.

On a side note, competition is hell of a lot of fun too. :)
added on the 2012-05-22 11:10:20 by Zavie Zavie
@knl: chill out guy, i only said that you have to make a demo yourself after you have been the 10th troller to said "make a demo about it".

i don't see what his "terrible", i didn't called you "ignorant" or "giant dick".


serial troller that doesn't like when people return the very same troll to them. funny.
added on the 2012-05-22 11:20:11 by rez rez
Quote:
none of this will stop me from having fun with 64k


Indeed. The obvious point, you couldn 't say it a better way

Quote:
I'm just sad there are such people within the demoscene.


Really helping, really.
added on the 2012-05-22 11:29:00 by __ __
Rez: it's not because everybody regularily troll about it that I wasn't dead serious about releasing a 64kb production there.

Let's keep this private convo aside of the thread though.
added on the 2012-05-22 11:37:40 by __ __
I actually realized after Zavie's race comment that I have absolutely nothing in common with this mode of thinking. Treating the demoscene only as a competitive sport disgusts me in big ways. And that is probably why I don't really care about Assembly's competition rules.. They only matter for people who want to participate in competitions.

Now I'd like to ask. If you are in for the competition, since the measure of the worth of your demo is only how many (rigged or not) votes you have received, you have to understand that you must tune your demo to the particular audience present at the party. So I would expect you guys to quit complaining about audiences not understanding your demo or whatever other childish reason to justify your ranking.

I once said I had the feeling that for some people making demos was something quite close to tractor pulling. The friends I have in the scene don't seem to fit that bill at all.
added on the 2012-05-22 11:55:30 by _-_-__ _-_-__
And that if it's only about the competition, then I wonder why you did not chose another kind of competition, such as competing for how much money you have in the bank or who has the biggest car, the hottest woman or the most children.
added on the 2012-05-22 11:57:52 by _-_-__ _-_-__
If you'd be great at tractor pulling, you'd say different. ;)
added on the 2012-05-22 12:01:30 by tomaes tomaes
knl: 'Having fun' is taking part in a compo against a bunch of other people with the same goals as you. 'Having fun' is seeing your prod on a bigscreen in front of 5000 people. Neither of those things mean that you're a ruthless glory-seeker (but even if you are, what's wrong with that...?)

For 64K and VIC-20 demo creators, there's now a tradeoff between those two things where there wasn't before, and that's why people are disappointed - especially if they believe it could have been prevented. Ultimately, you're right, people will deal with it by submitting stuff to less ideal compos or other parties... and in the latter case, Assembly loses a little bit of demoscene relevance. Which is bad, but we'll survive.
added on the 2012-05-22 12:06:08 by gasman gasman
I'm actually still wondering who all these massive amounts of Vic-20 demo creators are?
added on the 2012-05-22 12:14:48 by britelite britelite
@knl: nice out of context quoting. Did you seriously read it this way? People outside the Scene not getting why one would do a 64k and how it's different from doing a demo is normal. But I expect people within the Scene, especially after years, to understand that.

@_-_-__: while I'm perfectly fine with people completely disagreeing, I'd appreciate they didn't pretend or imply I said something I did not. "Treating the demoscene only as a competitive sport" is something you just made up.

Quote:
the measure of the worth of your demo is only how many (rigged or not) votes you have received


Or the number of downloads, or the amount of shouting at the party, or the people who came to thank you after the compo, or the feedback of people you respect and value, or your very own opinion?
As if a piece of art could be reduced to a ranking...
added on the 2012-05-22 12:31:34 by Zavie Zavie
I really don't understand why people absolutely want to explain me basic ideas like "having fun" when they seem not to understand some even more very basic arguments.

I'm really more anxious about the idea of separating the music competition between "the music" and the "dance music"... and time has proven I'm a big crowd-pleasing hater but still, it's nice and FUN to submit a non-crowd-pleasing track and get at least one person to enjoy your work.

The same as I truly believed (how naive) that a coder would definitely love being ranked in the middle of demos while he submitted a 64kb. And you thought they loved competing... but not taking much risks (yes, yes, I know, I should make a demo...)
added on the 2012-05-22 12:36:40 by __ __
Forget about it, you completely miss the point, I give up.
added on the 2012-05-22 12:37:59 by Zavie Zavie
Well, see, I'm in violent agreement about ranking and about what it does to you when you misunderstand it. It measures only what it measures. It's also kind of useful when you're at a stage of your personal development, and less so as you understand the limits of your abilities (i.e. when you grow up)

Although you did not say that you were treating it entirely as a competitive sport, you did fish your analogy from that world. It connotes and reduces scene competitions to that, and that's how I understood your comment. I was not precisely responding or attacking you, even if it looked like that. I was attacking the concept of demo making only as a "competition"

Your analogy does bring this effect, especially juxtaposed with Rez's quote: "demoscene is totally a competition, it's the ROOTS of the movement, it's in his genes, it's completely, totally based on COMPETITION between groups."

Which I can understand coming from someone who has worked with warez groups where this element is permeates everything.

The fact is, I like competition as a motivation or to create drama. It's just not the end of the world not a life goal, and merely a tool. And in the case of creative pursuit, a rather strict normative one that creates trends and enforces them. I.e. I think it stiffles creativity.
added on the 2012-05-22 12:41:29 by _-_-__ _-_-__
Quote:

If you'd be great at tractor pulling, you'd say different. ;)


Tomaes, this is very true. In our life it's hard not to define oneself by how good we are at something and to over-extend how important this thing is. It becomes a problem when you invested all your life into something that becomes less relevant to you as you age, creates tensions. Depressed people might throw themselves in the pursuit of such things for the wrong reason and lose themselves in the process.

That is why "Having fun" is good to keep in mind ;)
added on the 2012-05-22 12:47:11 by _-_-__ _-_-__
Zavie: Did I even say I didn't understand why would one do a 64kb production over a demo? I just said: you like making 64kb? you want to make a 64kb? you make one. submit it as a demo (don't forget to send your best fuckings in the nfo) , watch it on the big screen, and "'have fun" (thank you gasman for this one). If you rank, the better you'll feel about it. If you don't rank, oh well, "they don't understand your art" and make a new one.

Of course it's a huge amount of work and maybe you'll feel like submitting a 64kb, that's up to you, not the orgas.

Reminds me about these cancelled multichan compos where orgas would ask me if I still wanted to submit the tune for the stream compo... and I replied "yes I want" because hey, "fuckings", I made something (ok, I admit, it's better if preselected). OF COURSE I know it takes less time making a module/music than a demo but on the ratio making a 64kb / making a demo, now we have some analogies right?
added on the 2012-05-22 12:49:43 by __ __

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