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breaking news: 64k category killed, dancers happy

category: parties [glöplog]
If dropping the 64k category means that teams that have, until now, spent a lot of time building tech (or more accurately, rehashing/copying tech from existing groups) will actually start building cool demos instead of "engine test" intros then that can only be a good thing.

The technical challenge of 64ks is, essentially, gone. People uinderstand how it's done now. Procedural content is commonplace. It just takes a crapton of work to do something special and that's what's mostly lacking.

As an example, I personally would prefer to hear a well-produced soundtrack instead of a track using off-the-shelf V2 sounds. That's not a diss of V2, but I think we can all agree that reusing an 12-year old softsynth is not the mark of innovation that the demoscene should aspire to.
added on the 2012-05-20 22:57:53 by sagacity sagacity
(That last remark is referring to the fact that intros are just demos with a softsynth instead of an mp3-player, you can also swap that out with respectively "extruded splines" and "well-textured, animated models" and so on).
added on the 2012-05-20 22:59:32 by sagacity sagacity
That will be funny when ASM will decide that they will cancel "demo" competition and add a "youtube video" competition because there's not enough "demo" releases.

And all the rest of this topic is totally depressing for me, so instead of starting a new scenedrama i will shut the fuck up.
added on the 2012-05-20 23:09:03 by rez rez
instead of complaining on pouet how you'll miss 64k, go and do an 64k intro about it.
added on the 2012-05-20 23:19:10 by nosfe nosfe
@nosfe: yeah, i will totally do that of course.
added on the 2012-05-20 23:45:48 by rez rez
Who knows, someone may find a new challenge in an old challenge. People are still making C64 demos, after all.

And for that matter, look toward the future -- there's always another hurdle, always another way to make things difficult and fun, it does seem. Who'd have imagined WebGL demos in 1995? Or Javascript demos? Probably not many folks.

To quote a Xerxes song, Fight fear with hope.
added on the 2012-05-21 00:11:48 by metoikos metoikos
I respectfully disagree with everyone who says that 64k's are an easy way out. Or doesn't serve it's purpose anymore. We'll be left with extremely size-restricted productions which - as I see it - can be divided into only two popular aproaches: Particles and Raymarching. There's equally little inovation going on there as in the 64k category.

As for the people arguing that 64k intros could just as well compete in the demo compos since they're "almost there anyway", I couldn't disagree more. The 64k limit _does_ involve a lot of work, but the tools required _can_ be created by normal (read: not professionals) people.

I think the line could be drawn at the point where productions can compete equally in compos without several thousand dollars worth of software involved. Take a look at the "big" demo releases. I bet you that each and every one of them is created using various pro audio-equipment, 3D software, sequenzing software, sophisticated state of the art physics engines or something like that. While a 64k intro could easily be created with some c++ / asm editor, a freeware version of renoise/whatever sequenzer and a small (or not so small) softsynth.

Speaking of inovation and productions just refining the technologies "invented" some 10-15 year ago - how's that different with demos? To me - it's the other way around. Major releases being re-released in slightly different layouts/colorschemes and with a brand new ... tadaaaa ... breakbeat or dubstep-like score to go along with it. How's that inovative?

And to be honest, I have no clue what the prizes are in 64k intros compared to demo compos. I know the prize-money is insanely high at Assembly, but what about parties that doesn't have cash prizes? If I thought I had a real blockbuster intro on hand, I'd probably wait until a major party - not for the prize but for the recognition and urge to have as many see it as possible. If it's anything short of a masterpiece - it would be released at the next given party I attended. Regardless of the prize being a t-shirt, a free beer at the bar or a spraypainted plastic duck.
added on the 2012-05-21 00:39:23 by Punqtured Punqtured
Quote:
Lol, yeah, the 64k compo at Revision was only 11 entries that all ruled.

Some of those were surprisingly good after a dry spell in 64k land and that's the short of it. A grip on reality would suffice.

Quote:
How could you possibly understand my statement in such a fucked up way?

You opened your yap on the internet and started talking about prizes and compensation. Not saying you're the idiot here, but this nonsense that a quaint hobby deserves "adequate" compensation needs to end.
added on the 2012-05-21 00:56:45 by Shifter Shifter
hopefully, most of us doesn't care of near-to-be-dead demoparty installed into a massive gamer event and we will continue to do 64k for our pleasure of course.
added on the 2012-05-21 01:02:41 by rez rez
oh, come off it Rez. It's boring.
added on the 2012-05-21 01:16:45 by Shifter Shifter
Quote:
[...]so instead of starting a new scenedrama i will shut the fuck up.


Quote:
hopefully, most of us doesn't care of near-to-be-dead demoparty installed into a massive gamer event and we will continue to do 64k for our pleasure of course.


Take a chill pill, brother!
added on the 2012-05-21 01:23:01 by Tomoya Tomoya
Quote:
Oldskool demo: the goal was to move rules towards the very early days of the scene as we got complaints that folks making e.g. VIC20, C64 entries don't want to compete with 486 or Amiga 4000 entries. This is hard one and clearly we can't please everyone with this, so we are trying to deliver a category that's more equal and truly old.


In that case, I have to say that you've thrown out the baby with the bathwater. From a quick survey of all the Assembly oldskool entries since 2000:

DOS / Amiga AGA demos, which are intentionally being excluded this year: 9
Demos on platforms which are accepted this year: 33
Demos on platforms which are unquestionably in the spirit of the oldskool compo (VIC 20, NES, Gameboy...) but wouldn't be accepted this year: 18

The absence of the VIC 20 is probably the biggest WTF - VIC demos at Assembly have been a real institution over the years. Personally I've always loved the diversity of platforms in the oldskool compo - IIRC, that's another scene tradition that Assembly can be proud of pioneering - and I'm sure I'm not alone in that. If the list of platforms was an honest attempt at capturing the full range of hardware that truly 'belongs' in that era and deserves to be in the compo, then it wasn't a very successful one, as the figures above demonstrate. Frankly, it looks more like a case of "we're going to get complaints whatever we do, so let's disclaim responsibility for the decision entirely and base it on whatever random stuff we have in our basements instead".

Accepting the fact that you're never going to please everyone, wouldn't it have been more reasonable to say "We will accept demos on [insert default list of platforms here]; others will be permitted at our discretion, if you bring the hardware and contact us for confirmation beforehand. PC and Amiga >500 will not be accepted, and our decision on other platforms is final."? Sure, it would need someone to take on those decisions and respond to the emails with a yea or nay, but if the orga team can't stretch to that then I stand by my opinion that the oldskool compo is slowly being killed off.
added on the 2012-05-21 01:46:43 by gasman gasman
Sad news! I had started a 64k and planned to come to Assembly for the first time.

Quote:
There were only 31 64k intros released in year 2011. [...] The numbers speak for them selves, the 64k as a standalone category has died.

So your saying that there were too few 64k intros last year. Because of that, you're removing the 64k compo, and you add the 1k intro compo. Could you tell me how many 1k intros have been released last year?
added on the 2012-05-21 01:57:37 by LLB LLB
it really baffles me that anyone would think assembly would continue the 64k category after the ultimate failure that happened last year. when i heard they had only one prod there and the compo was cancelled, i was sure it would be dropped out this year.
added on the 2012-05-21 02:27:28 by nosfe nosfe
Go and make an intro about it!
added on the 2012-05-21 04:26:21 by ham ham
Quote:
You opened your yap on the internet and started talking about prizes and compensation. Not saying you're the idiot here, but this nonsense that a quaint hobby deserves "adequate" compensation needs to end.


Let me state it differently then. When a demoparty announces significant prizes for competition, I interpret that as a way to attract more releases and thus get better ones in general. As a matter or fact, Assembly does have major releases even though there aren't that many sceners attending. But if you're going to do this high prize thing, I believe it should be consistent across categories. Anyway, the topic is now moot.

Now is Revision going to be the party holding the 64k legacy too?

@smash (and others): I completely hear you on this innovation matter. Will give it some serious thought.
added on the 2012-05-21 05:40:06 by Zavie Zavie
gasman: the machines allowed in the oldskool democompo are pretty much decided on the basis of which platforms actually had a demoscene "back in the days", which is why for example the Vic-20 unfortunately isn't included. This was pretty much done to prevent the compo from becoming a competition of "who can build the fastest/most powerful machine within a certain year limit". And there's still the real wild compo for the more exotic platforms.
added on the 2012-05-21 05:58:24 by britelite britelite
What reed said about combining compos. At a small party you take the approach that its not really a compo as there's only a few things in each, you take the attitude that you want everyone to be able to show what they did somehow.
Asm can be different and make a few clear and defined proper compos imo.
added on the 2012-05-21 07:36:20 by smash smash
Quote:
So your saying that there were too few 64k intros last year. Because of that, you're removing the 64k compo, and you add the 1k intro compo.

I'm not in any way involved with arranging Assembly, so you should probably direct that comment at someone else :)
added on the 2012-05-21 07:39:21 by gloom gloom
Quote:
As for the people arguing that 64k intros could just as well compete in the demo compos since they're "almost there anyway", I couldn't disagree more.
Just so I don't get a plastic sword in my back at Solskogen, my points was that from an attitude/demoscene/compo-planning perspective, a 64k intro can differentiate itself from regular demos in a compo, simply by being an intro. If that's a good or bad thing.. dunno.
added on the 2012-05-21 07:41:26 by gloom gloom
Zavie: The Assembly prizelist hasn't been announced yet, and when it is, I expect it to be pretty much on the same level as it has been for years. You should therefore not read "significant prices" in the setting of Assembly as "an attempt to attract more releases", but more along the lines of "if they are reduced, people will react".
added on the 2012-05-21 07:44:18 by gloom gloom
*sheathes the plastic sword for now* ;)
added on the 2012-05-21 08:47:24 by Punqtured Punqtured
i made a picture about it:
BB Image
added on the 2012-05-21 09:21:50 by v3nom v3nom
[quote]Oldskool demo: the goal was to move rules towards the very early days of the scene as we got complaints that folks making e.g. VIC20, C64 entries don't want to compete with 486 or Amiga 4000 entries. This is hard one and clearly we can't please everyone with this, so we are trying to deliver a category that's more equal and truly old.[/quote}

VIC20 entries don't want to compete against Amiga AGA, so you decided they won't compete at all...
Also c64 is truly old whil VIC20 is not???
added on the 2012-05-21 09:29:32 by baah baah
baah: the difference is that the C64 actually had a demoscene back in the days, while the Vic-20 didn't
added on the 2012-05-21 09:34:12 by britelite britelite

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